The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 3, Thread 4.

55. Clintophobia
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 3:05 AM/EST
sully

Mark,
I am not "Clintophobia", I am merely stating facts. Maybe I have a sense of right and wrong and/or outrage that is not so PC today because I am making a judgement. I spent 24 active and reserve years in military service and no, I would not gun down helpless people because it would not be a "lawful" order. What was a lawful order for soldiers was decided by the war crime trials of the NAZIs and still used in military code of conduct today all over the world.

I am very offended that you would bring up such a vulgar subject as My Lai to try to defend president Clinton. 5000 civilians were slaughtered by the Vietcong in Hu during the 1968 Tet Offensive, are you otraged about that?

People like you make me sick when you will say or do anything to save Clinton's sorry ass. Since you cannot defend the actions of the commander in chief's actions in Somalia, out comes the personal attacks and insults to my pass profession and a stab in the back to all the men and women, past and present, who did not flee the country and proudly serve in military service. You owe me and them an apology.

You especially owe an apology to all service members who died for your freedom of speech to make a complete ass of yourself.

57. Clintophobia
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 6:53 AM/EST
DixieDarling

Each of us has certain "hot" buttons which when touched produce a reaction somewhat out of proportion to the acutal offense...Sully's has to do with any disrespect show to the military. As a long-time soldier, he has a right to feel strongly about something he probably knows more about than the rest of us. He also has the the right to loathe Clinton, the man and the President.

I loathe him also, but for different reasons. I may be less volatile in my speech than Sully, but I share many of his opinions. Interestingly, so does Mark which Sully seems to overlook. There may be FOB's on this board, but most are struggling to come to some understanding of how we came to be in this Orwellian situation.

Let's try to give each other a little slack.

58. confession: I wanted sully's hot button...
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 12:40 PM/EST
Mark

Throughout my life I've found a correlation between a veteran's credibility and his eagerness to present his military service as an act of altruism, a sacrifice for his fellow countrymen: the correlation is in indirect proportion. I respect altruism, and many military veterans can be appreciated for their noble sacrifice -- up to the point that they want to milk it for political advantage, and assuming they weren't among the many enlistees or draftees whose decision to serve was for far more mundane reasons than to give it up for God and country.

Some high profile veterans with credibility: George Bush, John McCain, Bob Kerrey. High profilers without it: Ollie North and Bob Dornan. The latter 2 are the type of demagogue that to me represent the greatest danger of all to a free society. Their appeal is to emotions and reflexes, the type of emotion and reflex I see in much of the disproportionate indignation and hatred directed at Our Billy (as Hannibal Lector would say). Given the mad history of nations at war, the last kind of Commander-in-Chief I'd want to see is a North or Dornan. Give me Clinton any day, a man toward whom I have many reservations, but who shines in the grace he's shown his most rabid enemies. (Granted, his spinners take their shots, but that's our politics; the other super spin machine was Reagan's under Mike Deaver.)

If, & it's unlikely, Clinton is solely responsible for unnecessary deaths in Somalia, there's no justification for the irrational conviction that the Commander-in-Chief is cavalier toward those deaths or that the snafu slithered like a viper from the pit of Our Billy's perceived cowardice.

A much better case for inappropriate behavior by the prez re military action, IMO, was our recent counter-terrorist bombings, which to me smacked of political cover. I can't think of a prez in my lifetime, though, whom I haven't at least suspected of seeking political cover in a military maneuver (Ford, maybe).

I'm very capable of apologizing to you, sully. You're indignant as hell about being given the same treatment that you consistently give Clinton. When I think about the years of vicious assaults that the Clinton family has taken -- e.g. the good reverend with millions of followers who circulated a video tape alleging Our Billy killed Vince Foster, greedily scarfed up by Rush Limblob and the right wing media hyenas -- I don't yet feel the sort of guilt about pushing sully's button that compels an apology.

I think you're sincere, sully, but let him who throws the biggest stone wear a serious flak jacket.

Cheers!

60. Dixie darlin', sully et allia
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 1:36 PM/EST
Nagwan Ratna

sully, the ones who need to apologize to you are: Kennedy, Johnston, Nixon, Westmorland and their confederates. You're the one who was duped and deceived into serving in an immoral and unjustified war which was, from its inception, an act of deceit against the People of Viet-Nam and the US. I am genuinely sorry that you and so many others chose to blindly obey and go thru that hell and many not return but the whole thing was a lie from beginning to end. You and the others ought to recognize it and get on with your lives instead of trying to glorify what you all were ordered to do. I was very active and very helpful in assisting many young men to avoid the disservice of the Viet-Nam war and am proud to say I did not serve either. Nor would I change a thing, given the opportunity to do it again under simular circumstances, except I would want to help more avoid "serving" in such a war. If more people had done as my good friends and I did, less would have died and the conflict would have ended sooner rather than later.

61. Draft Evading
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 7:38 PM/EST
DixieDarling

Why am I not surprised that Nagwan was himself a draft dodger and aider and abetter of other draft dodgers? The was in Vietnam was certainly a low point in our history for any number of reasons, and as the mother of 3 sons, I would be far more likely to consider draft evading an option now than I did then.

However, one of my sons just today received his honorable discharge papers from the US Army after spending 4 years in active duty and 4 years in the state national guard, and I am proud of his accomplishments as a soldier. Luckily, he didn't see any conflict, nor was he stationed overseas during his tour of duty. His brother, a merchant sailor at the time, spent 6 months in Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm...worrying to a parent, but without any serious danger.

But, many of our servicemen and women are being put at risk today by the current administration for far less reason than was the perception during Vietnam. Mark, no, Clinton wasn't wholly responsible for the lack of support in Somalia, but as Truman said, "the buck stops[there]." It was a political decision, not a military one. And I find it difficult to forget the mental picture of BJC being "serviced" by Monica while discussing troop deployments in Bosnia! That is so disrepectful to the troops and to the American people as to surpass understanding.

You also seem to believe that Clinton's extraordinary patience with the "bad guys" is a badge of honor...IMO, it is proof of his cowardice and utter lack of principle.

PS Nagwan, if you are going to continue to use the litany of "Kennedy, Johnston, Nixon, Westmorland", please double check the spelling of their names. It is Johnson, not Johnston and I believe, it is Westmoreland, not Westmorland, but I could be wrong on that one. I would not mention this except that this is the second time I've seen it, and you should be able to spell your enemies' names correctly at least.

62. Thanks, Dixie
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 10:59 PM/EST
Nagwan Ratna

As Mark twain once remarked," A person who can't think of more than one way to spell a word dosen't have much imagination." Now, don't take that personally! Congratulations on your son's discharge from the military! But, how come when I resisted the war and helped many others to avoid the draft I'm a "draft dodger" and when you speculate that you might consider it for your sons, its an "option" called "draft evading"? Please, what on earth could this mean: "...many of our servicemen and women are being put at risk today by the current administration for far less reason than was the perception during Vietnam." Didn't your sons come home to you safely? Are you saying that We should not be in the Gulf? That We should not be upholding the UN resolution? That We should not be interfeering in the actions of other soverign nations? If that is the way you really feel, I'll be happy to share with you some time tested and effective techiniques on how to resist the war machine. Power to the People!

63. apriori
Tue, Dec 1, 1998 - 11:00 PM/EST
j2saret

So then Sully, if I read you right, you are saying that both President Truman and President Clinton made tactical mistakes while thinking strategically. By your own admission Clinton has recognized his mistake and profited by not repeating it. Well neither of those two leaders are in an exclusive group when it comes learning from mistakes that cost brave and loyal men their lives. How did you feel about Reagan's sacrifice of unarmed Marines in Lebanon? How about you? Make any mistakes that got people hurt/killed while you were in? I think you are reasoning backward. You are convinced that Clinton is evil and are now looking for evidence that this is true. To bring it all back to the title of the thread the judiciary committee's investigation of Clinton/Lewinsky must not be yielding enough to satisfy impeachment requirements, now they are delving into campaign finance where Bob Dole is shown to be 10 million more in questionable spending than Bill Clinton.
John
(not grasping at straws)

64. Not just Clinton and the military
Wed, Dec 2, 1998 - 1:47 AM/EST
sully

It is just not the actions of President as the commander in chief, it is the actions of Clinton as a man, as the leader of a great country, and as a world leader. It was known from day one what kind of person he was, yet was still elected, twice. I am still scratching my head over that one.
Has our country forever lost it's outrage? Willing to give up the concept of right and wrong? Have we gotten to the point that the Roman Empire did when the elite offered the masses "bread and circuses" in the form of a good economy and crap that passes for news and entertainment? The Roman Empire was destroyed from the inside, by the time the barbarians were at the gates of Rome and kicked them in, the whole rotten society fell into their hands.

66. Our Billy, some fava beans & a nice Chianti...
Wed, Dec 2, 1998 - 2:59 AM/EST
Mark

Nagwan,,, I dropped out of college 1-A in 1969 and missed the draft only by the grace of a high lottery #. I was an apolitical would-be jock who was still 5 years away from having a clue what scholarship was about, Eventually a poli-sci course and some history lessons beginning with Halberstam's, "The Best & the Brightest" enlightened me to the hideous truth of our Nam policies (the real ones vs. the ones fed the public). You did the right thing and a courageous thing resisting that unconscionable war. A lot of suckers with misplaced trust, bad info, disinfo, or the warm blanket of conformity wrapped around their proud shoulders derided and hated you for following your conscience. We forget that for most of the resistance years the resisters were the moral minority. As for me, you have my belated gratitude. If we'd do the human stuff right the national stuff'd get less inhuman.


Sully... if you can correctly identify the one deliberate falsehood in the foregoing paragraph I shall deem you worthy of an apology, war criminal fantasies and all.

70. vietnam and korea
Wed, Dec 2, 1998 - 3:49 PM/EST
sully

Mark,
I thought that our best and brightest did not go to Vietnam, they were the ones who were dying if AIDS according to the AIDS activists. The one who went to Vietnam, according to revisionist history was the country hicks and intercity blacks. All the cream of society was marching on the campuses and burning the ROTC buildings. Now these radicals run the institutions they tried to destroy. This is a long winded answer that you are reading and passing on a lot of crap by a revisionist history by persons trying to cover their treason during the war years. I can not argue with you.

I believe that Vietnam and Korea was not really a mistake. Did you know that more people in Southeast Asia died within 2 years after the communists took over than was killed during the entire American operation in that area? Korea and Vietnam were mistakes in the political sense because there was no overwhelming public support. As a result of a clear mandate by the people, both Political and high Military leaders were in disagreement. Johnson was picking bombing targets over breakfast in the White House for political purposes, not military ones. Live were lost needlessly because of certain targets off limits.
We learned our lesson in the way Desert Storm/Shield. We have seem to forgotten those lessons in Somalia.

Anyway, the ones who suffered the most in Korea and Vietnam were the troops there, they were blown one way than another because of extreme policy swings. Not having the folks back home support them did not help either. The US should not take on any military operations without the blessing of the American people, else there will be no victory.

I apologize that I gave the mistaken belief that I was in Vietnam, I was not. I came in right at the tail end of it and got as far as the Philippines. But I also was spit on in the airports just like the ones who did fought there.

We are far off the subject here right now. If there is still interest in the military and society, lets start a new thread.

71. Too many to answer separately
Wed, Dec 2, 1998 - 4:15 PM/EST
DixieDarling

Nag,
I used evader instead of dodger under the understanding that one was supposed to vary the words used in writing. As far as I'm concerned they mean the same thing. Don't be so touchy! I was kind of agreeing with you and that's hard to do most of the time.

Sully,
Gee, I'll bet your support for consciencous objectors comes as a real surprise to some of the posters on this board.

72. "The Best & the Brightest," i.e. ...
Wed, Dec 2, 1998 - 8:18 PM/EST
Mark

Sully:
Halberstam's title referred to JFK's cabinet and his so-called Camelot milieu. (Dixie's debunkery of Camelot on target.) You were right to catch an irony, sully, but you pinned it on a false assumption. The irony was the Nam policy fiasco brewed by DefSec McNamara, the former General Motors whiz, and other glittery wonks.

I did not read support for COs in your post. Maybe Dixie should translate for me.

Please do regale me with your theories on revisionist history and the AIDS epidemic -- I'm all ears.

Points of agreement: tragedy of the experiences of our soldiers, and the requisite of popular support for war.

74. Draft dodgers vs. Men of Conscience and more
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 11:18 AM/EST
Chuck

As one who spent 10+ months with an infantry platoon in VietNam, I'd like to say...If you stood up and said "I believe this war is wrong and I will not serve in it, and will suffer the consequences of my beliefs", I can not only accept that, but admire you for standing up honorably for what you believed. If you ran to Canada, lied, faked physical or emotional problems, or did any other dishonest thing like sign up for ROTC when you had no intention of following through, you sent some other poor bastard in your place. Aside from the clarity of the cowardice entailed in THAT behavior, the arrogance of believing you are somehow intrinsically more important than some other human being is truly appalling.

By the way...they weren't the Best, and they weren't the Brightest. Those supposed bright ones got us into the war...the best men died there for this country, in defense of the liberty of the people of South Vietnam. By the way, does it bother anyone that millions died in Vietnam, and then in Cambodia after we turned our backs and walked away?

It is very hard to have the memories of good men, good friends being shredded and brutalized, suffering death or sometimes worse, lifelong injury. It is even harder to know that a man like Clinton, who wrote the words "I loathe the military" is now Commander-in-Chief.

Those of you who share Slick's contempt for the military...especially whoever wrote words to the effect that we who served were suckers, better pray that each generation produces enough of us, the stupid neanderthals who respond to the call of the nation, put our lives on the line, and serve with honor.

And to whoever wrote words to the effect, we provide great veteran's benefits, I challenge you to visit a Veteran's Hospital, and tell me YOU would find that level of care adequate for yourself, or someone you love.

This member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (oh yeah, I'm religious too) will continue to fight for the rule of law, for government under the Constitution of the United States, and for the right to be politically incorrect.

NAGWAN: One last thing...premise vs. dialogue...premise, "to set forth BEFOREHAND as an introduction or a postulate; to offer as a premise of an argument". I'll let you look up dialogue on your own...but once again...you are wrong...even at the most fundamental level. What a surprise. Wrong in the sixties and still wrong.

75. Lefty gives Righty some credit...
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 1:18 PM/EST
Mark

Chuck,
Valid point to draw a distinction between open defiance of draft & facing jail, vs. flight to Canada (& facing other kinds of loss). There are to me many shades of gray in the interplay of conscience and duty, responsibility to self and to society, with regard to the Viet Nam experience.

Furthermore I acknowledge your legitimate offense at my choice of the word "sucker," as my point could have been made without seeming to disrespect all of those who served, whatever their motivations.

The point you thought you made re The Best/Brightest, however, was the point already made.

Our Billy's "Slick" designation is not unearned, and his ability to evade the draft and maintain his political viability is as good an example of his slickery as any. Slick gets results in America whether you're selling vacuum cleaners or welfare reform.