The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 3, Thread 24.

1. Gay, Straight, Bi
Mon, Dec 7, 1998 - 3:44 PM/EST
shuar

As someone who has been bisexual since I was a teenager or before, I have always been baffled by the extremism of American attitudes about sexual identity. The influence of religion here has been horrendous, in particular, the influence of Christianity and Islam, both of which encourage intolerance of anything other than procreative expression of sexuality. According to Kinsey and other studies a fairly large percentage of Americans have had at one time or other sexual experiences with the same sex. And yet the intolerance continues and all too often finds expression in violent physical attacks against gay or gay-appearing people such as the young student recently in Wyoming. I have known a number of straight guys who, because they were thin and maybe a little "pretty" got physically attacked as gay. Needless to say, this quickly awakened them to the reality that gay people experience all the time. This issue seems to really set off bells and whistles in the US. People feel strongly one way or the other. To me, especially, a lot of American males seem terribly threatened by fears that they might harbor some gay tendancy. In contrast, here in Latin America, men seem far more secure in their masculinity and therefore think nothing of expressing physical warmth, including kissing of their friends. They know that isn't going to precipitate a homosexual panic, because, sometime in their youth they came to terms with the reality that there exists a physical attraction, sometimes erotic, between men.

2. grew up homophobic...
Mon, Dec 7, 1998 - 10:42 PM/EST
Mark

Mostly over it now... Some self-examination after an innocuous lisping effeminate man with a daschund named Puppypup offered me a ride while hitchhiking in '69 (probably wouldn't have recognized a non-stereotype) -- I was loaded with anxiety... My only paternal cousin was gay guy, and cannot imagine him as anything but gay -- strong anecdotal evidence of genetic component for me. Cousin was brilliant & tragic figure who died young by his own hand -- didn't get much support from me, got none from his own mom...

No gay friends, but gay friends-of-friends. Went to Evergreen State in Olympia (ultra-liberal) where everybody's up front about it; in that environment the wariness/alienation stuff fades pretty fast.

I self-consciously noted hetero in my bio, with trepidation that I'd be taken as trolling for a middle-aged babe -- defense mechanism for my social pariah category: 48 year-old never married guy. (insert Twilight Zone music)

Can't even guess whether societal fear/stigma/bigotry re sexual orientation will play out as painfully and long as does racism against (esp.) blacks. Be interesting to see how much Genome Project/other research eventually influences Biblical interpretations of homosexuality.

3. gay lifestyle
Tue, Dec 8, 1998 - 4:12 AM/EST
sully

I am a heterosexual male and I do not even begin to try to understand why a person chooses a homosexual lifestyle. I personally think it is a form of mental illness that almost all physiology societies believed before PC reared it's ugly head. But from my libertarian point of view I support the right of consenting adults to live whatever life style they choose without fear of government sanctions as long as it does not harm others. I do not support any special rights for gays or any other groups for any reason.

Mark, suprised that I do not damm homosexuals to hell?

4. Simple Solution
Tue, Dec 8, 1998 - 11:18 AM/EST
j2saret

If civil marriage was broadened to include persons of the same gender, then we could distinguish between Homosexuals acting in an irresponsible (notice how I avoided saying moral) manner and those who act with the same honor as their Heterosexual counterparts.
How can a person act openly, honestly and honorably if those choices are not allowed them?

John
(straight without ever choosing)

5. It's not actually a choice
Tue, Dec 8, 1998 - 3:34 PM/EST
SunBird

Why would anyone ever "choose" a lifestyle that comes with so much hassle? I'm awfully bothered though that so many of the gay and lesbian relationships I've seen have been so neurotic. Not that heteros aren't neurotic too. But I think that non-recognition of those relationships by society contributes mightily.
Personally I think of myself as non-denominational on this subject. Went through a lot of angst though before I could accept that I'm very attracted to some women. And some men. I want a relationship with a person, damn it, not a set of organs!
And it seems to me, considering the divorce rate in the U.S. and our imitators, that we have enough trouble establishing committed, caring relationships without quibbling about a little thing like gender.
Peace.

6. Its a private choice
Tue, Dec 8, 1998 - 4:10 PM/EST
Marlyn

I should explain. I'm about as straight as they come -- and I have lesbian friends, several openly-ccommitted couples, as a matter of fact. One couple is older, less "in your face" about it (but honest enough that one can figure things out if one but pays attention to clues); another coupld is quite young and very in-your-face and confrontive about it.

Personally, I don't give a darn what anyone else does in the privacy of their bedroom. Whether homosexuality is an inherent predisposition or a lifestyle choice is unimportant to me. The important thing, to me, is that we're all human beings who have both the responsibility to behave respectfully toward all other human beings we come into contact with, and the right to expect such treatment in return.

No, I don't understand how a person could be attracted to another of the same sex -- but by the same token, I can imagine the same level of ignorance in a homosexual person toward how I find men attractive. My inability to understand them shouldn't and doesn't stand in the way of my learning about them and/or learning to care for them as a friend for who they are *inside*.

I agree that much of the homophobia present in America today is religous in origin -- and I decry the fact that anti-gay issues are a vehicle by which religion is managing to insinuate itself into the secular governing body. Of course, one of the good things to come of this is that folks are examining their views and how they arrive at them -- which can never be an entirely bad thing. It is the unexamined belief that is the most dangerous -- because it is the most mindless and easy to manipulate.

I don't support special priviledges for homosexuals; but neither do I support discrimination toward them either. I believe in equal access to services and equal protection under the law. I believe that dedicated life partners should be allowed the benefits and responsibilities of that relationship, be it in the right to make medical decisions for a mate incapacitated or receiving survivor's benefits when they are so designated.

I believe there should be a secular form of declaration of commitment that makes such things legal -- but that the term "marriage" is socially and religiously inappropriate. The issue is really only a question of semantics -- what to call a formal rite which declares an emotional union between two individuals, regardless of sexual orientation -- as opposed to a religious rite specifically designated to formalize a heterosexual mating.

I personally feel that the sexual orientation of a person is NOBODY'S business other than the person themselves and their partner. My friends are my friends -- I like them for who they are, not what they do in the bedroom to/with others. I can give them hugs without worrying that they'll interpret the gesture as a come-along -- after all, I've been married to a *man* for 20 years and have three children, and I've never made a secret of my "straight" inclinations.

Why can't folks stop finding time and reason to hate or fear anyone who's different from them, and just honestly learn to like or dislike a person for what that person has in his/her heart?

=sigh=

Namaste!

Marlyn

8. Hmmm....
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 12:40 PM/EST
DLMz

Sexual orientation is of no consequence to me or to anyone else except themselves and their partner. So be it. It's the person that matters to me, not the gender. I wonder, don't we have anything better to do than to judgementally peer into peoples bedrooms (or wherever sex occurs)?

There are many attempts at explanation and, more than likely, there's truth in more than one explantion.

Sex for pleasure is a choice we make (or don't make) as humans (how many other animals have sex for pleasures sake alone?) And if it's hetero or homo, who cares. It's still sex for pleasure. Then there's sex for reproduction. Well, on an obviously over populated planet (look at China), you'd think that homosexualty would be applauded.

All sexual relationships should be responsible and consenting.

For those of you who have already assumed that I'm gay, I'm not. I'm a married white female to a white male. But if he had come to me as a female, I'd be with him just the same.

Ciao.

9. New Jews?
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 1:30 PM/EST
SunBird

Homophobia serves much the same purpose for segments of the U.S. population as anti-Semitism did for some Germans pre-WWII.

It helps to keep it in perspective, though, to realize that there are a LOT of societies on this planet that are far more homophobic. Just not so many that have so much open homosexuality AND open homophobia.

10. Homophobia
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 7:44 PM/EST
sully

"Homophobia" is just a another PC buzzword created by the left wing elite to use as a weapon against those who dare to even question a person's homosexual orientation. It is part of the "newspeak" foresaw by George Orwell in the hellish socialist society created in his book, "1984".

Homosexual couples should not be allowed the same benefits as married couples. If that was the case, the next step is to allow benefits of people of different or same sexes just living together, whether are shacking up or living together without sex just to get the goodies. Who do you think will ultimately pay for this? We all will. I see enough of my tax money already being wasted by the Government.

And what does the stats of heterosexual divorces have to do with the subject? Homosexuals can not legally get married so therefore how can they divorce? What conclusions are you trying to get? Just another red herring thrown into the mix to confuse the subject.

If a homosexual couple wants to set up a household and live together, I have no problems with that as long as they are consenting adults and will defend their rights to do so. Government should be neutral and not pass any laws that give homosexuals special rights or take away any civil rights we all enjoy.

11. homosexuality and mental illness
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 9:10 PM/EST
Lynne

Sully, you said that you "personally believe" that homosexuality is a mental illness, but do you really want mental illnesses defined by people's personal belief systems? The DSM has long ago dropped "homosexuality" as a category of mental illness, and even when it was included, the diagnosis was conditional on the presence of "subjective distress". There is absolutely no scientific evidence that homosexuality is a mental illness, and illnesses of any type should be defined using scientific criteria, not personal belief systems.

And speaking of scientific evidence,(to all) sexual orientation, although probably not actively chosen, is not entirely genetic, but partly genetic and partly environmental like most traits. This is no way, however, could reasonable be used to justify discrimination.

As for gay marriages leading to live-in couples getting married persons benefits, you have that backwards. Some states without laws that allow gay marriages have laws that allow same-sex live-in partners certain rights that straight couples only get when married. So if you are worried about keeping a distinction between legally committed couples and live-in couples, the best thing to do would be to let homosexuals marry so that keeping that distinction could not be construed as being discriminatory towards gays. Furthermore, there are lots of kids waiting to be adopted that would be much better off with a committed same-sex couple of parents than they would be living in an orphanage.

12. A choice, not an echo
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 10:04 PM/EST
j2saret

I witnessed the struggle of my best friend from childhood--he lived just a couple of doors up from me in a converted garage, with his parents and sister. Even as a small child their was something different about him and by highschool he was know to be a "fag" "queer" "homo" even though at that time he dated girls and had no homosexual encounters. People can usually tell when a person is homo or hetrosexual just as they can usually tell when a person is male or female.
As to mental health, there are those who say thinking violence is a solution is a mental illness. I'll not concur but that idea is outthere. I think, I designed my course of study in college to investigate the notion that a whole range of healthy human behavior exists, far more than one right, or healthy mode of existance is possible. Permitting Homesexual marriage by civil authority is just one way of not having to recognize a "domestic partnership" unless some legally sanctioned agreement is obtained by the partners. The reserving of marriage to "one male and one female" is possibly unconstitutional because it recognizes a religious definition of marriage and, like the sunday blue laws needs to be overturned by the courts.

John
(married "since the dawn of time")
'

13. Gay, Straight, Bi
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 10:43 PM/EST
shuar

Sully, in my experience I don't see gay people looking for special treatment. I see them looking for protection from gross discrimination of the sort that used to be visited on blacks and jews and other people who in earlier times were considered undesirable. The US is hypocritical as long as it claims to be a just society for all, but treats any group as an "out" group as gay people clearly are being treated now. I say this as a bisexually identified person, who has had much experience with both sexes. By the way the issue of bisexuality is also greatly misunderstood. If you go to North Africa, Turkey, Central Asia, or for that matter here in Ecuador, you see far more bisexuality as males here lack the homosexual fear and panic that American males, sadly, are conditioned into from childhood by a very narrow and neurotic culture.

14. GAy, Straight, Bi
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 10:52 PM/EST
shuar

Sully, read internationally recognized anthropologist Lionel Tiger's book "Men in Groups" about the male bonding phenomenon. He recognizes that there is a clear erotic aspect to male bonding. Only in uptight, severely mixed up America has this been distorted to create the hate and loathing that leads to physical attacks on both gay and gay-appearing people. I get really mad and disgusted when I think of all the young kids in the US who get teased or worse and many of whom end up becoming suicidal just because they are made to feel inhuman in the American context. This would be virtually unimaginable here in Ecuador, where one's humanity would not be denied because one appeared to be something.