The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 3, Thread 19.

1. Existence
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 8:01 PM/EST
Ronin

This has basically become an open forum, so I would like to introduce a topic that is seldom discussed because of its broad range. Why do we exist? Do we have a purpose? Essentially, what is the meaning of life? I hope that this generates a large variation of viewpoints.

My personal belief is that my purpose in life is to improve things. I don't care what, but I am born, and before I leave it, I intend to make it at least a little bit better. I have the distinct impression that I can make a difference, and I intend to make good on it.

2. Mostly agree....
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 8:11 PM/EST
mikerose

As the deity explained to Job, Job didn't have the experience or knowledge to understand "why." I'm not long on quoting scripture, but I can buy that one.

I don't know why I am here or the purpose that may have been assigned to my (or our) existance -- or if there is one. So I chose to create my own purpose. And it is the same as yours -- to make something (or a lot of somethings) better.

3. Existence
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 8:45 PM/EST
sndy

I believe there is a spiritual baggage we all carry with us, call it karma, for lack of a better word. I try to do things in my life that do not hurt others. If I have hurt others, I apoligize, discuss it with them, and try to make things right.

I feel there are way too many humans in this world of ours, wasting way too many resources. I have chosen not to have children, because I believe there are already way too many others having them with no thought involved.

I do not know why I am here. But I do hope I have some good impact on others.

4. Edward Abbey from "Desert Solitaire"
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 9:06 PM/EST
WVBro

There is beauty in nature, said Baudelaire. A place to throw beer cans on Sunday, said H.L. Mencken. If our world has any significance it lies in the power of the odd and unexpected to startle the senses and surprise the mind out of their ruts of habit, to compel us into a reawakened awareness of the wonderful.

Out there is a different world, older and greater and deeper by far than ours, a world which surrounds and sustains the little world of men as sea and sky surround and sustain a ship. The shock of the real. For a little while we are able to see, as the child sees, a world of marvels. For a few moments we discover that nothing can be taken for granted for all is marvelous, and our journey here on earth, able to see and touch and hear in the midst of tangible and mysterious things-in-themselves, is the most strange and daring of all adventures.

5. What is purpose of life and death?
Thu, Dec 3, 1998 - 9:16 PM/EST
tomturkey

Assumeing you beleive in God, what purpose would living and dieing serve. One and only one. If the people on earth lived forever and never died.
There would be no souls created. So if a person lives and dies then there are souls for God.

9. Existance
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 1:19 AM/EST
James

wow, I'm really impressed with the depth of the posts in this particular thread.

One thing that has always perplexed me about existance is how we fit in with the laws of thermodynamics. Particularly the laws governing entropy. I alluded to this concept a bit in an earlier post, but let me expand as I think it is probably relevant here. How is it that in a Universe which is on an entropic downturn to homogeneity, we stand strong and instead evolve out of the primordial soup into living and thinking creatures, conscious not only of our own existance, but also our own eventual physical death.

So, I guess we have to ask ourselves whether the non-entropic nature of life is a condition of some sort of living essence that brings the atoms and molecules of our surroundings into a living form. Or rather, if all of the environmental conditions exist to the right moderate degree, will life just simply arise. I used to think there was a distinct multidimensionality to our universe, one of physical matter, and another, a certain special sort of energy that comprises the non-entropic essence of life. I still believe in this multi-dimensionality, but I also believe that the essence of life will automatically be able to enter this physical realm where all of the conditions for life exist. Our third planet from the sun is absolutely teeming with life. If we were to find another planet out there that had similar properties, I would place my life savings on the fact that that planet is probably teeming with life as well. So, it is the theory of mediocrity then, wherever the conditions which demands exist, you will find life. The better the conditions, the more the life.

We found life on mars, but the conditions are terrible there, so we didn't find very much life.
As far as the purpose of life, and the nature of consciousness is concerned? Well I guess that is another post altogether.

10. A little known fact...
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 3:53 AM/EST
Bruce

I don't know who "gets" this one, but as a longtime student of the Bible, being a preacher by profession, I wonder if anybody has ever pondered the implications found in a little discussed book towards the back of the New Testament called the First Epistle of John. Actually, it's a letter he wrote to his church, and in it he makes a statement (he repeats the thought twice) about as plainly as anybody ever could, and yet it's so loaded with implications that I doubt anybody has ever truly gotten to the bottom of it.

That thought which he considered so important that he spent the extra precious ink and paper to repeat it, is that God is love. Not that God has the capacity to love, but he *is* love.

I'm not trying to debunk scientific approaches or anything ridiculous like that, but might it not just be possible that, whatever theory pans out in the final analysis, God was behind it all the way?

Personally, I find a great deal of satisfaction in John's statement, mostly because it gives a reason to existence. I mean, love, in order to be love (in the truest sense), has to have an object other than itself, hence the universe, and yes, even us. I don't know about anybody else, but that sure makes me feel a whole lot better about why I'm "here" than just as the result of a happy accident. Gives me a purpose for existing, and also gives me a tremendous challenge to try and find the source of that love so I can return it, at least in part.

In pursuit of the source of that love, I have to somehow come to some sort of understanding of it, and in the process I find that the only way to understand many aspects of it is experientially. The end result is that I find a capacity for love within me that otherwise might have been overlooked, and it's going to take me a lifetime to cultivate it and develop it.

Betcha Ol' John was one heck of a preacher....

11. continued
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 4:51 AM/EST
sndy

Growing up, I listened to the Catholics vs the Baptists, of my own divorced parents and families. I quickly, by age 8, realized they both had the same beliefs, but neither could accept the other. I therefore regected both. Since then, my religion has been my own conscience and belief in myself.

12. That bothered me too...
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 2:22 PM/EST
Bruce

Sndy,

That bothered me too for a long, long time. But I went back into that same book and found another interesting concept, and it is that fear such as you're talking about doesn't really come from God. John said that "perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love."

A whole lot of, what, garbage(?), put out by different religious groups today is nothing more than them taking the simple truths of the Bible and twisting them to serve their own purposes, for example, getting people into their respective churches.

And no, I don't *need* God to realize a capacity for love, but given that he is love,or more precisely for the sake of this argument, the source of love, it sure helps to have some guidelines to be more effective in manifesting it.

Makes me wonder sometimes when I hear somebody express a love for somebody or something, what the real facts of the matter are. Way too often, I find folks tend to be using that word to express a feeling of sentiment, rather than what the Bible describes as love. I like to use the old King James Bible, and one book in there uses the word "charity" in lieu of the word "love," and boy, is that an eye-opener! Kind of exposes the truth behind somebody's expression of love real quick, I would say.

13. My Thoughts
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 6:18 PM/EST
ladeyj

Nice thread, thanx for all the thoughtful thoughts I laboriously developed my idea of God over a 20 year period. Raised Cathholic (Catholic convents no less and believe me, that's Catholic), touched base with a little Unitarian (which I find has many good points, just a little to intellectual for me) on to Protestant Christianity to "The Tibetan Book of the Dead."

Three years ago I spent the winter (I love winter) reading, or I should say, trying to read the book. Finally I thought, 'these people have spent centuries trying to figure this all out, others have spent centuries too. My conclusion: 'there is something out there, but no one really knows what it is, and I don't think we ever will, leaving us stuck with faith. There is something there; I can let go of Will and direction, and feel it. God is not male or female, but an 'intelligence,' or an essence. I see us swimming in this 'intelligence/essence,' which I also fantasize as pink cotton candy (pleze excuse an over active imaginaton). I swim in it whenever I turn loose of myself, all of us do or can. You could substitute the word 'love' for 'intelligence' if you wish -- afterall, words are manmade remember.

I think our purpose here is to grow in every way possible, and we each help one another do that by our contributions. Not everyone wants to grow, as well and makes no effort to do so, it is a choice. As to soul, I think it is a part of this overall essence/intelligence -- eternal as well. The Tibeteans say that when a soul wants to join a body, it begins looking around for a copulating couple, so watch out! I can see it now -- little pieces of pink cotton candy essence breaking off to look for a home. I'll see you down at the pool! ladeyj

14. God
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 6:45 PM/EST
sndy

Bruce and ladeyj-
I agree with both of you. No arguments! I will watch out for that pink cotton candy though! laughs

I have no problems with people using religion as their center; luckily we live in a "free" country where this is allowed. I think my problem is with the unthinking blind faith type of religion. I have an aunt who argues that "if you are saved, all you have to do is ask for forgiveness". I can not agree to this narrow aspect of life.

16. Neither do I....
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 8:16 PM/EST
Bruce

Sndy,

I don't either. I was taught that forgiveness only comes *after* repentance, that being a turning away from that course of action et al. Actually, I was taught that there are four steps: Sin, Repentance, Forgiveness, Deliverance. Try that one on your aunt.

I would say that we have to consider something else here if we adopt the idea that our existence is God-caused. Is God "in" everything, sort of like what I believe LADYJ is saying, or is he separate from it. (Pardon the gender usage; it's how *I* was taught!). See, if he's in everything, than we have to say that we're pantheistic. On the other hand, if he is separate from it, then we're theistic. The problem with pantheism is that we wind up with something similar to the Hindus, who wouldn't crush the nastiest little bug because of the ramifications of doing so. On the other hand, if we remain theistic, we can work with an "I/Thou" framework, and I forget who wrote about that. Geez, you guys keep catching me without my library handy where I can find all this stuff!

The beauty of an "I/Thou" relationship is that it gives us something to work for, i.e. moving from a state of separateness to a state of oneness. If we accept the first four words of the entire Bible, "In the beginning God," as being true, then that means God does exist, and if he exists then he should be somehow knowable, and that can be a pretty powerful motivator or purpose generator for a life, however it is carried out.

Real religion, Christian or otherwise, should be an exercise in reason. Anything less is just an emotional workout, and believe me, a lot of folks are doing just that, working out their emotional frustations etc. with no more thought to the whole process than to feel better about themselves for the moment. Boy, are they missing out! Even the non-theistic thinkers and contributors to this thread are doing better than that.

17. God and Organized Religion
Sat, Dec 5, 1998 - 9:42 PM/EST
Gabriele

Wow!!!!

I am humbled by the depth of these posts :))))) I even had to use my dictionary a few times to fully comprehend the dialogue but thank goodness it is always nearby :)))

Like many, I too have pondered the reason for our own existence especially when death occurs to someone we know. Ending up as dust in a box gives pause to the hectic life we insist on living - nary a moment to gaze up at the stars and just enjoy the beauty of our universe.

I believe that no accidental merging of all the right molecules created the world as we know it - nor arranged for the seasons to come and go.....

haven't figured out yet my part in it.....so keep on discussing :))))

Gabriele

18. 17.
Sat, Dec 5, 1998 - 9:53 PM/EST
Ronin

Bruce,
You talk of the condition in which we move from a separateness to a state of oneness. Isn't that the main idea of just about any religion? Christians join God, while even Hindus and (dare I say) Taoists move from the human to cosmic sense of life.

20. Existence
Sat, Dec 5, 1998 - 10:37 PM/EST
bikermike

I personally believe that I am here due to a random occurance of many things over a millenium of time and that when I die I die. period. I admit there are so many things I do not understand or comprehend, i.e. UFO's, cosmic intelligence, GOD, previous lives, reincarnation, ghosts, voodoo, etc. But what I do know is that the more tolerance you have towards others promotes more tolerance towards you and that can only develop into a good thing.

21. We Are Responsible For Ourselves
Sat, Dec 5, 1998 - 10:48 PM/EST
ladeyj

I too think that we have an independence in moving about this our world. In fact, I think we should remember that except for the natural stuff all we got is manmade -- our ideas of government, institutions, organizations of every kind -- are all manmade. Ideas that came from ourselves and there perhaps is the God connection, but ideas made by man -- which means we can change them. IMHO our task is to do it until we get it right. ladeyj

25. The Mother of Wonders
Sun, Dec 6, 1998 - /EST
Caelain

Sndy

On We are God:

I love that concept (smiles). Maybe technology can be accessed so that we can all show off our smiles.

When I was seventeen, my Sunday school teacher explained to me that my step-father, who had never harmed anyone I knew of and was generally a very loving man, was going to spend eternity with satan because he was an agnostic and specifically because he didn't accept the wise and compassionate minister, Jesus, as his savior. Well, I thought that to be an odd law for the Greatest of Spirits to legislate, and left my devoutly, religious protestant faith as something to be questioned on every level.

I see Christianity now as a beautiful and loving construction of meanings for people to live by, when viewed in its purest state. Where these ideologies fail people, I believe, is when they place limitations on love. Can the heterosexual parents love the prescious nature of their homosexual children?

Perhaps, Bruce, the belief in something greater would only be natural in all humans that come into the biosphere with parents? My Mom and Dad were certainly my Gods in the early years. What are the implications of that? Maybe the nature and method of our raising are behind the emotional contagion you stated many folks bring to their beliefs. It seems to me that vengeance and the demand of worship might be the same as a parent's discipline and demand for respect. I wonder if Christianity and Islam, all too often, enable folks to associate destructive and limiting energy with the divine, allowing folks to justify cruel behavior.

28. Uh oh!
Sun, Dec 6, 1998 - 1:06 AM/EST
Caelain

It strikes me, as I review, I may have inadvertently failed to honor the other folks that have chimed in. Since, the possiblity exists that at least some of you are tired of reading my long-winded commentary, I'll just say:

Gabrielle-beautiful stuff!

and that I also appreciate the perspectives of Bikermike, Mikerose, WVbro and Tomturkey.

and special thanks to Ronin for this great topic.