The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 1, Thread 17.
1. What can *we* do?
Sat, Nov 7, 1998 - 1:16 AM/EST
Ska Madgirl
Hello all :) first of all, nice to be here!
now this is a lovely first topic, I must admit.. but what can *WE* do about it? are job, is to sit here and argue amongst ourselves, and share opinions about something that can't be changed by us. it's so sad, when the citizens of the USA can't have a say in how things turn out in this matter
we have to trust politians...trust politians? hahahaha
well, I've shared something :)
Steph
2. Ouch.
Sat, Nov 7, 1998 - 3:30 AM/EST
mikeware
That hurts. I must have written 5,000 words tonight. Talk IS cheap. For a while there I *thought* I was doing something ... sigh.
I guess you're right in the short term. Democracy works slowly - but it does work. Maybe all we're doing is keeping the issues alive. I can tell you there are people out there who are doing something... at least on the conservative side. Check out some of the following if you want to see some more effective examples:
www.judicialwatch.org www.worldnetdaily.com www.etherzone.com www.conservativenews.org
3. hmmm
Sat, Nov 7, 1998 - 3:53 AM/EST
Ska Madgirl
yeah of course you're doing something, you're expressing yourself, and helping other explore their thoughts I'd say that's *something*
anyway, I have read all the threads...I wish I had been able to come on earlier, because I'd have joined in some of the earlier discussion but, we have a few more weeks on here, to discuss this one topic! then you'll all hear more from me! haha scary thought
Ska
thanks for the examples, I'll be sure to check them out.
4. What can *we* do?
Sat, Nov 7, 1998 - 1:46 PM/EST
mnmus
Steph, you ask the question, "What can *we* do?"
Now, don't take me for a "puritanical republican" because I am neither. ;~)
_But_, I will say the first thing we should do is pray for Bill Clinton, the man, then for President Clinton the chief law eforcement officer of the land that:
1. He come to grips with his faults, confess them to those he has wronged (which _includes_ us, the electorate) and make every effort at restitution.
2. He would learn the humility that is essential to public service and reject the arrogance that he has consistently exhibited as a person and as a powerful politician.
3. That he would lear what it meas to be the servant-head of his own huousehold, seeking first to serve his wife and meet her deepest needs above all else, including his daughter ad his job, for that is his first and most important pledge. And then that he would find the conscience within himself to desire and earnnestly seek to be a living example for his daughter of honestly and high ethics i his dealings with all persons.
After prayng for him as a man and as a public servant, it is then our duty as citizens and as people whgo care about both him and about the effects of his behavior upon the rule of law in our land to hold his feet to the fire of truth, as it were. To continually, though NOT hatefully, confront him with his wrongful behaviors and not just walk away from his problems as inconsequetial.
Keeping the dialog open and carefully confrontive, not allowing him and his apologists to be enablers of this kind of behavior, we can keep the issue alive until he is forced to deal with his fatal flaws.
It is important we do so because he is our president, elected to serve us. We have every responsibility to require of him that he obey the law, that he be honest with us. Were we to renege on that resposibility as a people, we would be accepting a defining down of what it means to be a public servant to the level of "trailer park trash" (as his miniions have felt free to label others). And we would be allowing the president of the United States of America to redefine the presidency itself as a position above the rule of law, as long as it is "only perjury".
What can *we* do?
We can refuse to stop the dialog until he deals with his issues in an honest way, regardless of whether he resigns, is impeached or "serves" out his term.
Our service to Bill Clinton and to the body politic must be to keep his misbehaviors alive in public discourse until he actually makes a genuinely clean breast of his misdeeds.
To apply a Winston Churchill quote out of context (and perhaps against its original intent):
"Never, never, never quit."
6. What *WE* can do.....
Mon, Nov 9, 1998 - 8:30 AM/EST
MsSKYLAR
Well....*WE* Can do what we Want, basically. Seems that's part of the admendments.
Praying..seems a little late in the day, hope they practice safe sex, Watch Hillary Smile.....day after day. AND some MAY want to consider VOTING.... , That too helps..maybe. Vote for me...I shall never be caught w/my pants and morals down.
ANDREA/SKYLAR
7. Still Frustrated...
Wed, Nov 11, 1998 - 12:58 PM/EST
mikeware
Wow. Great posts!
Personally, praying is the ONLY thing that really relieves the fustration. Talking (writing) about it helps, but it's discouraging how different this community seems to be than the general populace, politicians, and especially the media.
I forget the percentage, but it's estimated that the overwhelming majority of voters only exposure to the issues is through paid political advertising. Take the rest that are influenced by a biased media, only interested in selfish gains, or just too tired to care, and you realize that the percentage of people who really desire to understand the issues is infinitessimal.
But still, it does feel good to *talk*, to *learn*, and to *vote*. Doesn't it?
8. take it
Wed, Nov 11, 1998 - 4:23 PM/EST
Alex_6
We can't really do anything except vote for the likes of Jesse the Body Ventura. Or become billionaires ourselves and make people respect us. I mean, Clinton isn't going to get impeached, the public is pretty much dumb and happy, at least as long as you can get a half-rack of Blatz for $3, and big business runs the economy. You think you can change the flow of trillions of dollars overnight? Capitalism dictates morality. What doesn't further the system is quashed or marginilized. In the end, all politicians serve the same master. So you've got a couple choices. Join it, and skim as much cream off the top as possible, fight it and lose, or ignore it and pursue you're personal agenda. Or, you could sow the seeds of discord and chaos wherever you go. Now go eat a hotdog with a bun on Friday.
All Hail Eris (What the hell else is there to do?)
9. What Can ***WE*** DO
Thu, Nov 12, 1998 - 1:43 AM/EST
MsSKYLAR
ALEX.....I like you..you say what the hell needs to be said. And Everytime...I see This string, My brain Itches. This statement just bites my nerve. Americans say that..every damn day, what can WE do..that sit in the recliners, remotes in hands...children lost in their own homes, people to lazy to know .or even VOTE. Children are the FUTURE......We can damn well.and better hurry it up...START Educating them..on reality.Sadley..Playtime is over for them, and they never had the play.THEY NEED people to DO the right thing...TEACH them, arm them with lessons on reality and they WILL care and will
10. agggggggggg.part 2
Thu, Nov 12, 1998 - 1:50 AM/EST
MsSKYLAR
Change their WORLD..that we so selfishly never gave a good crap for. Parents.turn off the TALK shows, and TALK.to that little person.....you birthed..even animals...have an instince to raise their breed, WHAT WE BETTER DO and fast ..is WAKE THE HELL UP TO REALITY. The schools cannot teach VALUES, HONOR, TRUST, ONLY ****WE**** as parent can..And if you don't care to.then you wasted your child's future. ANDREA
11. my two cents:
Thu, Nov 12, 1998 - 9:41 AM/EST
peaux
Alex_6: this is not the stance that brought about the Civil Rights Movement, the repeal of prohibition, or women's suffrage. The choices are multitudinous: Vote, harrass your representative, protest, petition the government, activate your community, join a non-profit action-group, write your local editor, run for office, teach your children (or any children around) to be better citizens, start your own "watchdog" organization (like Klanwatch) file suit.... I could go on, but I'd rather you come up with more yourself. Doomsaying condemns one to fulfill the prophecy. Thought followed by action enables one to effect change.
12. Yes, but.
Thu, Nov 12, 1998 - 1:35 PM/EST
Alex_6
peaux- Great, I applaud that you believe in what you do, and strive for good. But the things you have described are merely outlets for energy against the system. They are part of the system. Civil rights, women's sufferage, great, these were good things. But the fundamental division remains, and it has nothing to do with race or sex. The greatest division is one of rich and poor. America has a large middle class, fine, but the middle class is no threat to the power elite and monied interests, as I explained in my orginal post. What we have is a few million people in the world consuming the surplus of the other 5 billion. You talk of the Klan, but mostly I see poor white people fighting with poor black people. See a common denominator? See how we are being divided? Those in charge remain in charge and efforts like writing your congressman or joining a non-profit will never change that.
Ok, as far as your children, yes, teach them, love them, the world will be a better place.
13. Where do you fit?
Thu, Nov 12, 1998 - 4:59 PM/EST
mikeware
Sorry, this is a long post. But I came across this quote from Hitler's "Mein Kampf". (Could have been written by James Carvell, Sidney Blumenthal or even Bubba himself.) Think of it as an encouragement not to be just one of the masses...
"It's readers, by and large, can be divided into three groups:
First, into those who believe everything they read; Second, into those who have ceased to believe anything; Third, into the minds which critically examine what they read, and judge accordingly.
Numerically, the first group is by far the largest. It consists of the great mass of the people and consequently represents the simplest-minded part of the nation...
The second group is much smaller in number. It is partly composed of elements which previously belonged to the first group, but after long and bitter disappointments shifted to the opposite and no longer believe anything that comes before their eyes in all, or without exception fly into a rage over the contents, since in their opinion they consist only of lies and false hoods. These people are very hard to handle, since they are suspicious even in the face of the truth...
The third group, finally, is by far the smallest; it consists of the minds with real mental subtlety, whom natural gifts and education have taught to think independently, who try to form their own judgement of all things, and who subject everything they read to a thorough examination and further development of their own. They will not look at a newspaper without always collaborating in their minds, and the writer has no easy time of it. Journalists love such readers with the greatest reserve.... [Shortened by Reality Check Editor]
Adolph Hitler, 1927 Mein Kampf
14. Alex_6:
Fri, Nov 13, 1998 - 10:12 AM/EST
peaux
I beg to differ, my friend. Things can be changed, as i noted in my examples of what you call "good things". I see the division you speak of quite clearly and i don't sit around feeling bitter and sorry for myself... i know that something as large as class division can only be attacked slowly and painstakingly... one must have patience. the success (albeit small)of the Civil right movement, women's suffrage, child labour laws, ethical treatment of the disabled, and other "good things" that are accepted as a given today are a result of action by people not afraid to fail in their quest for justice. All of these "good things" have brought us ever closer to the day when class divisions are broken... probably not in our lifetime, but someday. What's wrong with working within the system to effect change? That, my friend, is what gets results. Our founding fathers (flawed though they might have been) saw that society changes and structured our government to reflect this. We, as a people, are allowed to petition for change within our society - that's a freedom not enjoyed by many other countries! You reject this freedom, just because it is given to you by those that run the system you want to change? We are still the arbitors of our system, if we ignore that responsibility, then we have no room for complaint if we don't like the direction it goes. No one ever got anywhere by accepting defeat before the game was over.
15. fever dreams
Fri, Nov 13, 1998 - 1:47 PM/EST
Alex_6
First of all, I do not feel sorry for myself, and I have not accepted defeat. Secondly, I am not complaining, I am only asking you to be aware of reality. Thirdly, do not speak to me of Democracy or freedom, these are illusion. Yes, we are allowed to 'petition for change', but are our petitions accepted? A good example is what recently ocurred in Washington D.C. The voters of the city voted to legalize medical marijuana (sp?) but the Congress, who runs the city, refused to accept the vote. Hmm, popular vote won out? I don't think so. Those in power were opposed, so the ballot measure was never enacted. Please see one of my favorite websites: http://tabloid.net/1998/11/05/potvote_981105.html for more details.
I still maintain that the actions you describe are innefectual. I asked you to consider the world as a whole. 5 billion people or so. We are sitting at the peak of the mountaintop, on the backs of billions of workers. The standard of living of the middle class in America is a concession, it is a result of the enormous surplus generated by the subjugation of the majority of the human race. The income that we have is only existant because the power elite can afford to pay us decent wages and still maintain fantastic fortunes. But never forget that those $100 Nikes you are wearing were made by child laborers in Indonesia or Hong Kong. Those countries have no hope of ever becoming 'Industrialized' or 'First World'. If it makes you feel good about yourself, to go ahead and participate in little political groups and environmental causes, go ahead. But go into it with open eyes. Please be realistic.
16. Roy's opinion
Fri, Nov 13, 1998 - 8:10 PM/EST
Roy
Interesting, we're quoting Adolph Hitler to explain Bill Clinton. I'll do so too:
"It also gives us a very special secret pleasure to see how unaware the people around us are of what is really happening to them." A. Hitler
As a person Bill Clinton is rather sad. As a politician he is top of the class, which, of course, perfectly matches the first sentence above.
The American people as a mass don't really worry about morality any more; it's out of style. The sexual blundering make them chuckle; the lying makes them shrug. They got a president that keeps the money flowing so they probly would get all that excited if he took to holding up liquor stores!
The think that is most disgusting in all this is that the sexual misdeeds probably only represent the tip of the ice berg.
Roy
