The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 5, Thread 20.

2. Immigration
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - /EST
Delmon

First off, the USA was made strong by immigration. It is what keeps us fresh, gives us new takes on life, and makes us unique in the world. One example of immigration giving us new vigor: Go to New York (city) and witness its transformation. One of the big reasons for this transformation has been the influx of South Korean immigrants who bought old, broken down corner groceries and spruced them up. It may seem a small thing, but as each street has about what seems to be a hundred of these mom and pop shops, it has done miracles for cleaning up and making the NYC a very livable place.

I think it is highly hypocritical of the offspring of immigrants to get on their high horse about too much immigration. We are all, after all, immigrants or children of immigrants.

5. Legal vs Illegal
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 5:54 PM/EST
Mak

I have no objection to legal immigration; it is the lifeblood of this country.

Illegal immigrants are more trouble than they are worth. They typically pay no income taxes, and cause unreasonable expenditures of my tax dollars.

6. illegal immigrants
Fri, Dec 4, 1998 - 6:02 PM/EST
sndy

Mak- I think most immigrants are very hard working and do not come here to live off of welfare. And, you have to admit, they work jobs that most of us would never, ever want to work.

The recent hurricane in Central America is causing a new flux of illegal immigrants. They only want to survive. There is no work, no life left for them in their country, it is all washed away.

7. I Too Oppose
Sat, Dec 5, 1998 - 1:35 AM/EST
ladeyj

I too opppose illegal immigrants -- heartily. I also think we should limit our legal immigration policy to 300,000/year and limit those to immediate family, perhaps including parents. I would agree to having a certain percentage of those invitees be people from the poorer countries taht we know will need public assistance to get on their feet. Living here in California, I know what an impact immigration has been. People don't want to believe it, but illegal and legal immigrants do absorb our social service and charity dollars. I was heavily involved in the question here in Marin and I was perpetually shocked to hear the rhetoric of the activist immigrants (often illegal, but who could prove it?). I came away finally realizing that for the most part, they did not give a damn about our country or our own citizens just as long as they got 'theirs.' They clearly cared only for themselves.

I know it is not fair to make generalizations as there are some fine people as well. Immigration, both legal and illegal, is a world problem and sure to get worse. The people so devastated by Hurricane Mitch were so badly damaged because of their impossible living circumstances to begin with. HOw do we get other countries to become responsible for their own people. One activist immigrant from Oxaca said publicly of the Chiapas situation -- "Oh, too many of us are up here, if we were there, we would be fighting too." Personally, I would be happy to send guns and tanks down to them so they can help themselves, their government there is irresponsible in my view.

In my view, also, we need to face these problems squarely upfront as to it's practicality. What are we going to do about the hordes of suffering people. The US and other countries, as well, cannot take everyone in who is suffering; how do you get the third world countries to become responsible for their own people. Mexico, for example, is a wealthy country, yet greed and an outdated class system is keeping way too many people in substandard lives. So what really is the answer. Why is it only OUR problem? Just asking!

8.
Sun, Dec 6, 1998 - /EST
Ronin

ladeyj, you bring up some good points.

I do not oppose immigration as a whole. Claims that they "steal" American jobs because they are willing to work impossible hours may be true, but if they work harder, maybe they are better suited for the job. They often raise children that contribute to the country, as many of them teach their children to work hard, and become good at skills that are needed in the job market.

However, it is true that the immigrants often add problems. Very few of them come here qualified to do high level jobs, so they simply increase the number of people in the lower classes. The problem with this is that we can't help our own lower class, and we can't help other countries either. Regardless of what immigrants think of the "land of golden opportunity", it requires a different kind of work than they expect to find, and some just can't cut it. And, although I may sound like a broken record, there is still the little problem of overpopulation.

9. Other costs
Mon, Dec 7, 1998 - 12:34 PM/EST
Mak

Many people forget about the other costs associated with illegal immigration, especially from our southern borders. We (the tax payers) have to foot the bill for increased enforcement by INS/Border Patrol, Housing and processing illegals (many time more than once), and catching and persecuting those Americans who aid them and/or employ unlawfully.

Also, most government agencies are required to print forms in English and Spanish, which costs us even more. I heard a horror story that New York City has to print every public form, document etc... in SEVEN languages.

I realize that this may sound petty, but all these things add up.

10. illegal immigrants
Mon, Dec 7, 1998 - 12:44 PM/EST
sndy

I work with many of the so called illegal immigrants. They work their butts off! I would never work the jobs that they hold, no way would I ever work that hard!

I think everyone should work and that we should not give anyone a free ride, but all humans deserve the basic necessities of life; food, clothing, and shelter! The United States has often added to the oppresion of the poorer countries to the south of us.

11. Realistic About Immigration Good Place to Start
Mon, Dec 7, 1998 - 1:18 PM/EST
ladeyj

Good to see people trying to be rational about immigration. The core of the problem, of course, is overpopulation, poverty, lack of opportunity in other countries, and class systems that keep the poor poor. Power hungry political leaders cause much woe in many countries as well -- Africa, in particular. I have no idea how you make those greedy, power hungry leaders take care of their own people. Other countries, including ours, simply cannot take in everyone -- geez, the damn planet would get top, or maybe bottom heavy, and tilt. The horrible devastation from Hurricane Mitch is largely because living conditions are so delicate in the countries affected. Put a hut on a dirt hill, and it is bound to turn to mud in hurricane conditions, etc. Condega, Nicaragua (sp) is sister city to Fairfax where I live. We are trying to help, but wish the money could go to building substantial living quarters and not perilously perched huts. (cont next post)

12. Realistic cont.
Mon, Dec 7, 1998 - 1:45 PM/EST
ladeyj

I think the "they do work we won't do" is a specious argument. California had a Bracero Program long ago whereby people could come in from other countries, largely Mexico at that time, to work the fields, etc. Cesare Chavez and Delores Huerta worked long and hard to get rid of that program and finally did - they said the Bracero Program took jobs from minority Americans, particularly Hispanic Americans. Now Chavez is dead, but Ms. Huerta is working long and hard to have an open door policy?????? Make up your minds folks! California's pop. is burgeoning. Don't have numbers at my fingertips, but biggest percentage of new people are Hispanic. They do or soon will vote. What is that going to do to our culture?

Multiculturism is BIG in California, which irritates me. What about being one folks, Americans. From my personal experience, a large percentage of those here legally and illegally don't want to become Americans, they want us to adopt their language (or at least include), infiltrate their culture, etc. I have heard these things with my own ears from the immigrant people spouting it in various meetings. Sndy is right, immigrant peoples are most often very hard working people, and I am not opposed to immigration per se, only think it is out of control in this country, especially in border states like California. Can't tell you how many times TBI got aced out for funding from non-profit and government sources in our county, the money we were competing for went to immigrant problems consistently. Took TBI ten years to get the day program that is so helpful to my son and I. Helping others before you help your own just doesn't seem right to me, but maybe I'm wrong. There are also hordes of abuses. Huge numbers of Asian families bring elderly parents here, divest them of their resources, then put them on SSI. Asian custom has always been to take care of their elderly, now we, the taxpayer, are doing it for them, and many of these families are wealthy. I just say our immigration policies and practices need serious revision -- if it's not too late. I'm all for extending a helping hand, but bring everyone here cannot be seen as the solution of choice. IT IS NOT WORKING!

13. Immigration Intolerance
Tue, Dec 8, 1998 - 12:20 PM/EST
Delmon

Has anyone ever done a study on how much immigrants pay into our tax system? We are so obsessed by what they take out, that we don't think for a moment about what they might be putting in. When I was in New York, I remember the figures for ex-soviet block immigrants was a good 60% higher in incoming revenues from immigrants than outgoing "charity" spending. Come on, they pay into our systemtoo.

As far as immigrants coming here to take only the lower class jobs. I wonder what my Irish great-great-grandfather did when he first arrived. I wouldn't be suprised if he dug ditches.

As far as multicultural society bothering people. What is the US anyway? If we want it to be one culture why don't we give the land back to the Indians and get on the boat to wherever we came from (actually, I've already done that). Let's not forget where we all came from

15. I don't think . . .
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 3:16 PM/EST
Mak

I don't think LEGAL immigrants are the real issue; the country can regulate that. Illegals are the problem, and they pay NO income taxes.

"The United States has often added to the oppresion of the poorer countries to the south of us."

How so, sndy? Most of the problems in the Central/South American countries are the result of internal corruption and/or power struggles from what I've seen. Interference/Assistance by the US would not be possible or desireable if those countries were in any kind of real shape.

16. US/S America
Wed, Dec 9, 1998 - 9:03 PM/EST
Jb

You don't think that the United States business interests had a hand in the devastation wrought by Mitch? The deforestation that has been occurring in that part of the country accounted for much of the catastrophe I believe.

You don't consider the sweat-shops run by Nike et al to be abusive of the economies and citizens of that part of the world?

The above questions are intended, despite their tone, as curious rather than angry. I don't know a great deal about South/Central America, but believe us to have been very influential politically in that part of the world.

17. Yeah JB
Fri, Dec 11, 1998 - 2:30 AM/EST
ladeyj

Not trying to be nasty either, JB, and YES I do think our Big Businesses do damage in third world countries where they pay totally unfair wages, etc., but how come we are the only ones at fault. Their governments should kick the corporations out or demand better conditions, but they don't due to, I believe, pretty greedy governments. Don't buy the stuff, I don't buy Nikes. Hear Robert Reich has an idea of selling a label that indicates no sweat labor was used, so we could watch what we buy. Might cost us a bit more, but I am willing to pay to be fair. ladeyj