The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 8, Thread 11.

1. Bob Livingston
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 1:10 PM/EST
Deborah

I'm wondering what you all think about his withdrawal from the (presumptive) speakership of the House of Representatives.

Best regards from Deborah

2. Hi Deborah..
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 1:27 PM/EST
Joy

I think it is horribly sad that he isnt planning to stand for speaker of the house because of sexual past..it is now 1:22pm in my time zone and from what I understand the President is planning to come forward and ask Livingston to reconsider his decision...maybe some good can come from this entire sad episode in our history.

3. Where'd we get this idea?
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 6:30 PM/EST
Mack

This idea that political leaders should be moral paragons? For my own part, I try (inconsistently at best) to listen to my own heart in assessing the morality of my own actions. I have never asked myself, "What would Bob Dole have done in this situation?" I haven't even asked myself "What would Moses, Jesus, or Mahatma Ghandi (fill in the blank with your favorite savior) have done?" Whatever the answer to such a question, it is the sheerest speculation which can add nothing to my deliberations. Likewise, to argue that it's okay for me to do A because so-and-so did it too (everybody, almost everybody, everybody i know, Clinton, etc.) is clearly to abandon my moral responsibility. So I think this business of expecting our political leaders to be several cuts above ordinary sinful mortals -- so we can look up to them as moral beacons in this dark and sinful world -- is a bit of folly foisted on us by our Puritan forbears. I should have thought we were wise enough by now to let that bit of nonsense in oiur history lie dead and buried. Apparently not.

4. The Spin on Livingston's Resignation
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 11:08 PM/EST
Frederick

Some of the pundits have begun to put out the spin that Livingston resigned because he was facing further revelations about his past indescretions. This takes pressure off of the President to follow Livingston's example, and appears to me another example of the cynical politics of the left, which will stop at nothing to get what it wants.

Something appeared in the New York Post that I'd never heard of before. It was called the "White House Secret Police" and is described as a group of private investigators that have been engaged in digging up dirt on the President's opponents for over a year. We have seen six or seven Republicans outed for their past indescretions over the past year, three in the last month alone, including Hyde and Livingston and another fellow who's name I don't recall. And no Democrats have been outed.

That's what I'd call cynical politics, mean politics.

Clinton got what he deserved. The more I learn about it, the more I feel that justice has been done.

5. Sad but true
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - 8:14 AM/EST
Joy

Notice in my bio it says FORMERLY member of a state exec committee? They dont call them political parties for nothing! These people throw parties you wouldn't believe........not my scene. Thats all Im gonna say about that.(to quote Forest Gump) Had a guy FAX me hotel reservations. I pretty much lost interest in the committee work after that but I certainly didnt feel like I needed to drag the man through the dirt & ruin his life! Sorry guys, I blame the 'other' women in this whole mess. A womans lack of self esteem makes her a victim-not a man making a pass at her. Maybe I should have gotten into this in another thread. Sorry If Ive transgressed here.

5. On Digging
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - 10:18 AM/EST
Mack

Frederick, m'boy. Who started this digging filth? At least in the present case, I think you'll find it was Clinton's enemies in Arkansas. What's a fellow to do when your enemies have dug up your indiscretions? Dig up theirs too. Politics as usual, my friend. Neither party has a corner on cynicism.

6. Continued Self Destruction
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - 10:25 AM/EST
boilerfan

This is just another example of the destruction of the Republican party at the hands of puritanical religious fundamentalism. Bob Livingston probably realized that he had would not win the speaker position now so why stay. He had wanted to quit earlier in the year and only stayed around at the promise of the speakers position.

I also think that Bob Livingston had an opportunity to help move his party away from self destruction and chose the easy way out. If he believed that he could be an effective leader, which he said in his speech, maybe he could have been the one to reunite the halves of the Republican party. As a life long Republican, that was my hope.

In response to an earlier statement about only Republicans being "outed", they're the only ones that it's fun to out. It is really more of a fight against religious fundamentalism and the hatred that comes with it then against the Republican party.

A CNN commentary a couple of days ago ended with what I thought was an appropriate question and it went something like this: "In todays political environment, would you want your children to run for office?"

13. I'm Surprised
Mon, Dec 21, 1998 - 1:19 PM/EST
Mack

I have to say I am really surprised at the beating of breasts going on inthe country. Everyone -- or, at least, everyone the pundits are willing to quote -- seems quite upset about all of this. I find myself utterly out of step here. Chickens coming home to roost, I'd say. Folks are reaping what they've sowed. Is all of this a deep tragedy? I guess some of the things I've personally been through lead me to say: I don't think so.

What's a tragedy? An example: here in St. Louis a young woman who only three weeks ago left her post as a local TV anchor, dearly loved by all who knew her, and only 37 years old, was killed in an automobile accident day before yesterday.

I didn't know her. But seeing her face on TV, and knowing she was now dead has moved me far more deeply than the political goings on inside the beltway.

The Kennedy (both of them) assassinations were tragedies. So was the assassination of MLK Jr.

That Bob Livingston has resigned, etc., etc. Pardon me, but this just does not rise to the level of tragedy in my mind.

14. Mack the Right
Mon, Dec 21, 1998 - 1:52 PM/EST
donald

Agree that the Livingston resignation does not rise to tragedy. The political legend about one of LBJ's congressional races where he told his political operative to accuse his opponent of being X-rated. His operative replied, "But we know that's not true." To which LBJ said, "Yeah, but let him deny it."

Now here is the tragedy. What were once dirty political tricks, that most voters ignored and few legitimate news reporters published have become legitmate with independent counsels being appointed for too many officials. This started with Nixon overkill in the dirty tricks and the excessive response to "out" him.
What we need is an end to the independent counsel statute.

15. Don't be so sure!
Mon, Dec 21, 1998 - 4:39 PM/EST
Mack

Donald:
I wouldn't be at all surprised if this whole thing doesn't finally backfire in the Republicans' faces. We've gone about as fer as we can go, and we ain't even in Kansas City! If anything is true now, it seems that all the sleaze mongering is not having its intended effect, at leaswt not among the voting public at large. Clinton's approval rating remains high, and even the frothing-at-the-mouth Republicans in the House know the Senate will not vote to convict. So what has all this been for? I'll bet the Dems win the big one again next time around. They will have spent more than $40m of our tax dollars to no discernible good end. Turn the bastards out!

Oh, yes. And get rid of that damned independent counsel statute!

19. Bob Livingston-What goes around, comes around
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 5:38 PM/EST
jeb

Hello folks,
I have a view on this from Livingston's home state. Back in the 70's, Bob Livingston was a prosecutor for the state of LA. He was influenced by local politics and went on a mission to help unions organize. This story is much too long for this forum and not important at this time. I am just comforted to know that the old saying still stands true, "What goes around, comes around." My family was devastated by his self serving actions and now his family will suffer due to his actions. Sorry to bore you with these details, I am glad to have a place to vent my feelings on this matter. So I am using you guys. I will curve this behavior in the future.
As far as Livingston quitting at this time, I think there is more dirt to be dished, not just his personal behavior but political as well.
Enjoy your holiday