The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 7, Thread 12.

7. Doc L.
Thu, Dec 17, 1998 - 3:39 PM/EST
Chalmers

Boot camps, education efforts, whatever. Something other than more prisons beds is a step in the right direction. The FBI has been posting drops in violent crime rates over the last few years. There may be something to the efforts being put forward.

8. Doc Liberty and Chalmers
Thu, Dec 17, 1998 - 8:04 PM/EST
Claudia

Regarding violence and incarceration. Yes to other solutions to crime, no to other solutions to crimes of violence. Have you ever been a victim of violence, Chalmers? I have and it is not an experience I would wish upon anyone. I am, however, against the death penalty.

9. Claudia
Fri, Dec 18, 1998 - 1:42 AM/EST
Chalmers

Thank you for letting the group know. For what it is worth, I'm sorry for your experience. It is brave of you to reject capital punishment.

First, I won't pursue this if it makes you uncomfortable. Please post.

I'm not too comfortable with this but...

Second, I think North American men are exposed to violence differently than women. I believe I was steeped in it a little longer than my sisters.

I have been beaten on several occasions (starting with step dad) and threatened countless times. Whereas most North American men find this normal, my early childhood was spent physically handicapped. I take any violence toward me quite seriously; I was unable to run from attackers a number of times.

10. Chalmers
Fri, Dec 18, 1998 - 3:41 AM/EST
Claudia

I'm sorry also for your experience but, perversely, take some comfort in the company.

I do agree that, in the case of parents, male siblings are targeted. I've seen it. However, regarding punishment for violence, I was speaking of the nature of the violator. The level of wrath (too mild a word) and pleasure derived from physically inflicting severe pain on another human is not sufficient to be a one time occurrence for those who posses this perversion. Only incarceration can remove this threat to the victim or victims as far as I can see. Fine, treat their anger from behind bars.

(Having said this I must add that, after the fact, I find the psychological abuse most devastating for the victim.)

11. Incarceration for violence
Fri, Dec 18, 1998 - 9:40 PM/EST
Chalmers

I'm all for containing violent offenders, whatever the method. My wish is a more effective education before the path to violence is chosen. I think eduction before the fact is, well, more positive.

11. violence and gender
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - /EST
Maggiheart

To Chalmers and Claudia:

Two become three I suppose.

In my experience, it was directed towards the only female (me) but from a female as well and I suppose that had bearing.

Speaking from the standpoint that it's better to prevent abuse than heal wounds; how do you go about reaching someone already steeped in it from birth?

There is a way to break the cycle individually and I must believe there is also a way to break it on a larger scale. There are many innovative programs that are helping but it seems as if the root remains still deeply earthed. Any clue as to what it could be and why it's hold is so tight for some? After all, how can we educate if the ignorance is not understood?

And what happens when education and so called reform don't work? Is it possible to be so consumed that there is nothing left but abuse? When you've been behind bars and it only fuels your anger, then where do you go?

One more thing, could the root cause be associated with a decline of morals and a rise in frusteration? Just a thought, I have no clue. If it was though, in a wierd way it could be associated with the general acceptance of what was formerly called deviant behaivour (at least publically), including extramarital-affair-enagaing-lying-under-oath-presidents.

11. Maggiheart & Claudia
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - 9:50 PM/EST
Chalmers

What about the incarceration aspect as a positive thing? There is a case to be made for letting violent offenders stay put in jail. I feel that it is prima facie we should contain people that impede social progress, whatever the method.

I think most people believe that broken families have a harder time raising a child without some deviant behavior growing in the child. I believe this generally, having come from a "factory rebuilt" family (natural mother, step father with children in tow).

I think the problem with the mass incarceration approach is the fact that if a violent felon gets out, little good generally comes of it. It is our reality that release will happen, so you and I have a real problem to deal with becuase of this. We have no choice but to consider solutions if we pull our heads out of the sand.

I have one further comment: a "root problem" line of thinking implies to me that there isn't enough person to work with. Does this sound true? Is there some line one can cross from which there is no possibility of recovery (theoretical pontification, here; this could be a whole other thread)?