The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 8, Thread 1.

42. Lying - my last word on the subject
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 6:22 PM/EST
Mack

Thanks, Joy, for the detail (wherein the devil resides, so i'm told). The one thing that has bothered me about this, and still does, is that in order to conclude Clinton is lying, we have to first assume that Monica isn't lying. All of this has been put forth on the basis of Grand Jury testimony - i.e., testimony behind closed doors and without cross examination by opposing counsel. Under these circumstances, what we have is not proof that the President lied, but allegations that he did. A trial would put those allegations to the test as best we can. But absent that test, they remain only allegations. Suppose I were to say, under oath and in a Grand Jury proceeding, "Joy eats grasshoppers for breakfast. I've seen her do it seventeen times over the past two months." No one in his right mind would conclude on the basis of that testimony that you were an insectivore. But it seems to me that this is precisely what we've done with Clinton. Monica sez . . . so it must be true . . . so he lied (not to mention that he is a disgusting excuse for a man, reckless beyond belief). So he was "having sex" with her -- excuse me -- she was having sex with him (but not he with her) while he was on the phone with a congressman. Blah, blah, de-blah.

Is it possible? I suppose anything is. Is it probable that a man who is accounted so politically astute would engage in such acts? A priori, not. We have Monica's word -- whatever that's worth -- in one dish of the scale. Trouble is, we'll never be allowed to test the worth of Monica's word. Whatever happens in the Senate, I would be surprised beyond my years if she were called to testify and be cross-examined.

Absent that sort of probing the so-called "facts" what we have here is a witch hunt masquerading under the color of the Constitution of the United States.

Republicans ought to blush. That they don't is the measure of their venom.

43. Grasshoppers huh? Chocolate covered?
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 6:40 PM/EST
Joy

But the President hasnt disagreed with Monicas version of the story Mack. He has confirmed it, he has just tried to explain his lying as a misunderstanding of the definition of sex given to him in the deposition on January 17th. So tell me, are you playing devils advocate here or are you really having so much trouble grasping such an obvious concept? Lets move on to a more interesting subject, shall we? Im far more concerned with where we may find ourselves as a nation if Al Gore takes over the presidency.

44. Sad Day
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 8:47 PM/EST
Frederick

What a sad day for our country. A sitting President has been impeached. Listening to the debate this morning left me very depressed.

What really riled me was the antics of the Democrats, with their collective temper tantrum in walking out of the House chamber and their screeching about the process being unfair just because they didn't get their way.

I really can't understand how the Democrats can continue to stand behind this guy. It's pretty clear that Clinton committed a felony. He brought all of this on himself, yet the Democrats continue to debase themselves by carrying his water. Is respect for the law completely gone from the Democrat Party? Are they willing to do or say anything, no matter how low, to win? They have attacked and demonized anyone who opposed the president for over a year, going after them with everything and anything they can. The response of the Republicans has finally manifested itself, and the Democrats can't bring themselves to believe that they have lost, crying foul after having been hoisted by their own petard.

Having said that, I still don't think that Clinton should resign or be thrown out of office. He deserved to be impeached. He does not deserve, based on what we know, to be thrown out of office. I hope and expect that the Senate will choose to drop the matter and issue some kind of censure. I don't think that removing him from office is in the best interest of the country.

45. Ouch
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 8:57 PM/EST
Joy

Frederick, have you checked out my bio? No, the democratic party isnt standing behind him blindly. Everyone of them standing behind him are disillusioned and hurt but life goes on. The democrats are showing a unified front for the good of the democratic party as a whole. The collectiuve temper tantrum you refer to was just really a moral booster for them. You and I have both expressed our sadness today. Can you imagine thier sadness? For some, this was the last vote they will ever cast.

46. Impeachment
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 9:16 PM/EST
John O

Good evening, my friends. This evening weighs heavily on my mind and heart. Tomorrow morning I will be leading a congregation in worship. I find myself struggling to come to grips with what has happened today, and what I must say tomorrow. We have witnessed a great tragedy in our nation's history and destiny unfold, and we still seem intent on going for jugglers. I keep hoping for voices of reason and compassion to ring out from the crowds of opinion - but it's getting harder and harder to find those who could possess such voices who might even be willing to speak.

We are all angry. We are all hurt. We all want this national nightmare to be over. But I cannot help but feel that, not only do we face the prospects of a Senate trial, but more importantly, we NEED such a trial. There are rare occasions when we find that we are in defining moments of history and destiny. The Civil War was such a terrible moment - and yet also, a critical moment of definition for us as a nation. I wonder if this might not also be such a moment for us all.

48. Sorry About That
Sat, Dec 19, 1998 - 11:21 PM/EST
Frederick

To Joy:

Sorry about my little temper tantrum. I'm so confused, so disillusioned, so angry, so sad, I really don't know what to think. Presently, I'm in a mode where I'm lashing out at everyone, and it probably has more to do with my own problems than anything else.

I think I'll have to pause for a day or so and let myself cool off.

My paternal grandmother would have said that we have an evil star hanging over us. So much turmoil in the country, in my own life, and the lives of several people around me as well.

49. Turmoil? What turmoil?!
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - /EST
Mack

Frederick, God [to reference a personage you are on familiar terms with, i gather] forbid that events within the beltway should determine your or my sense of balance, or imbalance. I know the pundits would have us believe otherwise, but out here in the hinterlands isn't "out here" to us! (I think Garison Keeler (sp?) said something like that about folks in Lake Woebegone. Putting it differently, it seems to me that when powerful men fall, if *we* become disillusioned, angry, sad, etc., etc. in reaction, that is because we have been living under our illusions. We've placed our center of gravity, spiritually speaking, in the wrong place. I should have thought that as a Christian you would have understood that.

53. Hey Mack-Chill OK?
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - 7:57 AM/EST
Joy

Lets all cut Frederick a little slack what do ya say? Frederick, please don't apologize. I completely understand. I just wanted to point out to you that each and every one of those people standing there yesterday were just showing the same emotions you are feeling as we watch this occur in our government and they have devoted their very lives to it. You are gonna come through this experience in your personal life just fine. I remember those dark days. Just hold on, they are gonna pass. One day at a time.

55. The Culture War
Sun, Dec 20, 1998 - 10:12 AM/EST
Mack

Frederick:
If my word to you sounded harsh, please forgive me. It was not intended to wound, but to point your heart to a better resting place.

I found your comments (and the quotes) quite provocative. And I, like you, being something of an old hippy, find some things the 60s brought us acceptable, and other things not. My own experience has taught me that adultery is foolishness (i am using the term 'fool' in its profound biblical sense). And moral relativism has seemed to me to be utterly bankrupt, intellectually. To my mind, the view cannot even be stated without self-contradiction. Situation Ethics is another one of those old views dressed up in a catchy name and marketed as if it were something new under the sun. It isn't. It's just the least defensible version of John Stuart Mill's utilitarianism. Most philosophers, I think, would acknowledge that this version of Mill's theory is demonstrably inadequate as a systematization of common moral sentiment. So, if you like, there are absolutes -- that is, there are moral claims to which we find ourselves accountable which cannot be reduced to any version of "if it feels good, do it!" I dare say you and I would disagree about what maxims to include within an enumeration of universal ethical principles. But the interesting thing to me is that there would not be all that great a disparity in our views. Morality seems to be part of being human. It may even be genetically wired in somehow.

What, then, am I to say about the Republicans. Well, I think they are tilting at windmills if they imagine they will eradicate false philosophy by bringing down a President. Even if (per improbabile, in my view) that false philosophy had many adherents, the best their action can do is only further divide us. During the 60s, the Chicago Police Department railed on some of our heads. I'm sure they thought, and felt, a sense of righteousness in their cause. Still, when all was done, not a single cracked head among the protesters would have given them the benefit of doubt. And millions more, who witnessed their riot on TV thought them an ugly and vicious representation of so-called law and order.

The forces of an overly zealous righteousness can now add Livingston to their bag of kills. In the end, though, I expect they will bring their houses down upon their own heads. St. Paul said (in an obviously different connection I cannot now recall) "beware, lest ye bite and devour one another." It were good advice to Republicans, advice which I doubt they will heed.