The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 9, Thread 15.

1. solutions - not problems
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 7:32 AM/EST
alan O.

any thoughts on how we can move ahead from hearing the same ideas over and over again, to how we might come together as a people/society? i don't know about you folks but i have a craving to move ahead - not to be a victem of hate and anger. i want to progress and help the human condtion. that means all of humanity and not just americans. for me i'd rather be part of the solution, not the problem. thanks

2. Alan:
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 10:13 AM/EST
RatGirl

Eeek. Can you possibly find a solution without defining the problem?

RatGirl

3. Re-eek
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 11:06 AM/EST
alan O.

ratgirl, if you don't understand the problem then what have you been writing about with all your messages on this web site? or are we dealing with endless verbal masturbation? thanks

4. Suspect easy answers!
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 12:01 PM/EST
RatGirl

Alan, are you joking and I'm just missing it?

As Rexwell put it, at the risk of not getting a joke: The whole point of this site is that there is NO simple solution because the problem is not simple and not clearly defined. I might have my own ideas of what the solution might be, but the more I find out how other people see the problem, the less I'm sure that my solution would meet their viewpoint of the need. Each and every person in this group has a unique and private viewpoint on "the problem". Until we can come to some consensus on what the problem actually is, we can't solve it. Bits and pieces of it, perhaps...but can you have a true solution in bits and pieces?

I never trust easy answers, nor an attitude of "let's fix whatever the problem is without examining the problem." I agree with you, Alan, that it's counter-productive to be flogging the same things round and round, though.

The Rat

5. Re:Solutionns
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 3:03 PM/EST
MaryL

Well, I think that one solution to generic problems is discussion: it seems that sharing ideas, knowledge, getting to know one another helps for an awful lot of problems. This site is one example. There have been other examples of getting people together to talk, with the result of less less fear, anger and ignorance and more understanding and empathy. Part of pulling down the iron curtain, and ending the cold war, I'm convinced, had to do with the greater availability of information.

6. the answer IS blowin' in the wind.
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 3:16 PM/EST
alan O.

rg,
there is a simple answer and it's blowin' in the wind, it's the implementation that's hard. what i SIMPLY said was we need to begin to start progressing forward toward a solution. i suggest we start by all writing something that we all can/do agree on. start to appeal to the commonality/bond in us - our shared humanity. i don't care about being right or winning, i care about us all doing well and not at another's expense. if we are so far gone that we can't do that... then god help us all and by the way we... know what the problem is essentialy - it is about power and control. not unrelated to sex, which is a form of giving up control and letting go of one's self. funny that this impeachment issue centers around sex and those for pro impeachment (the moralizers) also have trouble with sharing power. anyway shared power is when the group/society at large comes ahead of the individuals' needs. get my drift? i will be the first to admit that ideology is driving most of this discussion. but it leads us in circles. idealogocial arguments are really about wrestling over power/control. so the first step in the solution is to find a way to start sharing power/control. think about how people feel about their own immediate families and how we all sacrifice and share and protect our own. well we should just start to extend that family to the family of humanity. your turn ratgirl, i give the floor to you - your thoughts please. thanks maryl,
i do think you are on the right track. but we can't just preach to the choir we need to get everyone in the choir. the iron curtain most likely collasped because the greed was so great that it collasped on it's own weight. something our society is heading for if we don't watch out.thanks.

8. Alan, interesting posting
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 4:45 PM/EST
Rexwell

Yes, I feel the urge to do something, too; I know what you mean. Usually I do try to act out of my, should we call them 'principles'?--and attempt some change thru action.

And you're right, sometimes we put too fine a point on the definitions of the problems; endless debate can be a rationale for taking no action, as any good leftist knows. :-)

Still, I have to support RatGirl's argument a bit (since we're soon to be married, I can't safely contradict her). There are complexities, as she says, there are many interests & needs to consider. I'd go further and say there are lots of COMPETING interests to consider. (For ex, I doubt many economists would argue that capitalists don't benefit financially at the expense of their workers & v. versa. --The interests of the two directly compete, and one can't be helped w/o the other being hurt. That is a complexity that cannot be resolved w/o first defining the problem.)

And defining the problem can be action, too. That is, it can involve active debate, active listening, active thinking, accurate feeling, good judgment, good writing, an eye for the future, for those who come after us, and a seriousness of purpose (not untempered by good humor).

But you are right--generally, we know what the big problems are. The strategies of solving them tho are often so disparate that too little real work gets done. --So I know whatcha mean.

9. A logical and an emotional answer
Wed, Dec 23, 1998 - 4:58 PM/EST
RatGirl

Alan, all I'm saying is that to begin progressing towards a solution, we have to identify what the problem IS. All you've said so far is that The Problem is power and control. What exactly is the problem of power and control? In and of themselves, they cannot be a problem.

I have been writing, as vociferously as I can, because communication is a good thing. I squawk, as Harry Harrison wrote, on general principles. There have been many problems rearing their ugly heads that we've discussed here, but I haven't been able to locate just one statement of what The Problem is.

Tell me, please, what YOUR definition of The Problem is, something more concrete than that we have a problem with Power and Control. After that, we can debate over whether your version of The Problem is the real problem. Then we can come up with a viable solution.

Agatha Christie and Terry Pratchett wrote that most evil and bad things happen not because individual people are evil and bad, but mainly because people are people and rather stupid.

I understand precisely what you mean, Mary, about the Iron Curtain. My uncle was forced to kneel on broken glass during the Cultural Revolution; and one of my families' villages was knocked down to make way for a highway -- they were forced out of their ancestral homes and lands, which you may or may not understand was a tremendous blow to them.

My mother remembers helping to hide her older sisters and mother in the hay when the Japanese invaded, and then trying to find a hiding place for her terrified three year old self. She remembers worrying that the invaders would torch the hay with her family in it.

My world today is one that my relatives back then could never have imagined. A Chinese village once was a world unto itself -- now, no matter how poor the village, if there is electricity, there is a television set with people watching it. Without that TV, there would be no movement towards democracy in China. They have always emulated the reed and bent with whatever wind came.

My grandfather on my dad's side came to the US and opened a laundry in San Francisco (it still stands, though it closed when he died). One by one, he brought over the members of his large family. He did this because his children and his family could be whatever they wanted to be and were willing to work for, instead of trapped into one small role as they had always been in China.

The first-generation daughter of immigrants, I still get teary-eyed when they play the national anthem. I am angry when my country does things that make us less respectable on the world stage. I am proud when we lead in the global community. For the good luck I had in being born in the US, I would feed the world my parents left behind. I believe that my responsibility to my country is to care about how it's run and to have the say that other people have given me -- both those related to me and those not.

So there is first the logical answer to Alan's post, and an emotional one (I suppose to tweak Rexwell a little!) to explain my own motivations and biases. :) Sorry it got a little long.

RatGirl