The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 12, Thread 6.

1. Public Education
Thu, Dec 31, 1998 - 3:01 PM/EST
Milt

I'm curious as to whether anyone else shares my experiences and concerns about the state of public education today.

One conclusion I have reached is that our schools do not have mechanisms in place to hold teachers accountable for their use of class time. I served as a volunteer on a school board committee last year and attempted to have adopted a requirement that each teacher prepare a syllabus for each subject or course. A syllabus would tell students and parents alike what to expect. It would set out the required assignments, if not day by day, then week by week. It would tell how grades would be determined and what books or other materials would be used. The main thing though is to set out a schedule of assignments and then work through them. That way both principals and parents can tell if teachers even intend to cover things like grammar or scientific principles and they can tell by talking to their students/children whether the teachers do what their syllabi say they will.

This would be a small first step toward holding teachers accountable for providing meaningful content in their classes. The teachers on my committee, however, successfully opposed the idea of syllabi. They said it would take too much of their time.

Does anyone else think that real educational content is seeping out of our public schools? If so, what can be done?

Milt

4. Public Education
Fri, Jan 1, 1999 - 4:19 PM/EST
Annie

I wish I had more time for this right now because I do get tired of all the negative pr about education. I will address the topic in greater length later. Milt, did you have a public school education? Do you feel that it was a good education? Why or why not?

5. Public Education
Sat, Jan 2, 1999 - 12:25 PM/EST
Milt

Annie,

Yes, I had a public school education and I did not think it was particularly good; however, in some respects it was better than what my daughter is getting now. For example my schooling required learning grammar, spelling, multiplication tables and some of the other things that simply must be memorized in order to have a foundation for future learning.

The trouble with some teachers is they put having fun first and learning second. They overlook the possibility that learning itself might be fun. My daughter was in a class for gifted students. They were supposed to have an enriched learning experience in that class, but they never did. For instance, every Thursday was designated "game day," and the kids would bring games--Monopoly, Clue, cards, etc.--and just play games. They do that at home. This teacher simply squandered an opportunity to work with some bright kids and stretch their learning beyond the normal channels. The enriched class was such a waste that my daughter, of her own volition, dropped out of it after two years.

This class is a prime example of what happens when teachers are not held accountable for how they use their classtime. Classtime is a valuable and limited resource. Anyone who controls the utilization of valuable and limited resources should be held accountable for their stewardship. That does not occur in public education.

Milt

6. Public Education
Sat, Jan 2, 1999 - 12:58 PM/EST
Lily

Milt,

I'm relieved to see that someone in this world realizes that public education is down the drain.
As I teach future teachers and am frequently in the public schools (supervising student (teachers).

In my opinion public education has deteriorated
in direct proportion to the amount of Federal money that pours into the public school The money comes with too much baggage.

I wouldn't be too hard on the teachers, though Milt. I think they are paid well. But their hands are tied when it comes to teaching. They must follow federal guide lines.

7. From the mouth of a babe...
Sat, Jan 2, 1999 - 1:21 PM/EST
Sash

I've been reading the postings in here with some interest. I'm a high school sophomore at a public high school, so I take a lot of interest in the state of public education today.



To Milt:

Middle schools leave a lot of room for bad teachers. Middle school teachers (at least in my school district) can get tenure ridiculously easily. I believe it takes about three years or so to get tenure, and then the teacher can fester in their position for as long as they manage to live, plus their salary only gets bigger as they stay longer. I've had many a terrible teacher who's been teaching for about 50 years, and whom all of whose students hate. Even now in high school (and my high school isn't bad -- it was rated number 18 in the nation by Newsweek - Princeton High) I get ridiculous assignments. My English teacher (who is insane) just recently gave us a photocopied article about Hugh Grant (of all people) taken from GQ. The word 'wiener' was in the title, and the phrase 'Blowjob heard Around the World' was in the first paragraph. I didn't bother to read it.

I'm not sure what my point is, but it feels good to rant about school. I look forward to the day when my formal education ends and I can learn about the world on my own terms, in my own way. Until then, it's 'Conform or Die.'

- Sash

9. Education and Parenting
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - /EST
Myria

While I think, of course, there should be accountablity for teachers, parents are held far less accountable than they should be. Although my daughters are almost 3 yo and 19 months, I am already thinking seriously about their educations. In fact, I often say only half in jest, that I am homeschooling them now. There are many opportunities for education which take place outside of the classroom and learning is often best facilitated without the confinement of structure. My goal is to fulfill those gaps for my children that I don't see them getting in our public school system. 11. Public Education
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 1:59 PM/EST
RalphG...

To Milt,
I think Willy & Myra are pointing out an option that you as a parent have, namely to exercise your freedom to enrich your 13 year old daughter's learning experiences at home.
For example, your Bio lists chess as an interest.
I seem to remember a study reported on TV indicating that a group of young students taught to play chess was associated with a significantly higher grade point average in math than their peers.
Thanks for a golden thread that I've found provocative.

13. education, et. al.
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 3:27 PM/EST
Buddy

I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughtful postings. While each post has been informative, I was particularly taken with those that attempted to both assess the problems in education while suggesting possible solutions.

I agree with Myra that parents must fill in the gaps. It seems to me that essentially there is a triad with parents, teachers, and administrators/legislators that construct educational systems. Parents must be the watchdogs and review boards. My wife and I are committed to public education because we don't want a social system where the "haves" procure quality education for their children and the "have nots" get what is available. Bronx1 was right when he argued that education has been one of the most democratizing elements of our society.

Unfortunately, I disagree with Lily's assertion that the federal government plays such a large role. And while I'd appreciate more comments from Lily, I place Schools of Education squarely at the center of the problem. We just have to produce better teachers. I taught at a university with a large School of Education. One of the classes I taught fulfilled one of the School's requirements so I regularly had a lot of Education majors. Invariably, the poorest students I had came from the School of Education. Of course there were exceptions, but by and large the education majors were among my weakest students. More perplexing is the fact that Schools of Education produce nearly more doctorates in a given year than any of the other disciplines combined.

15. Why Education?
Mon, Jan 4, 1999 - /EST
ArtP

I've been fascinated by this thread... Everyone agrees (?) that education is important and that the system in the US could be significantly improved; the big question is how. But...
Before we can figure out how to improve any system (and the education of our youth is probably the most important social system that there is... In *any* society) don't we have to decide what it is that we want the system to do?
Should "Education":
Train people to be able to obtain a high-paying job?
Indoctrinate them into the social customs and mores of the society?
Give them a broad background in the history and literature of the (local) wider-based culture?
Teach them to accept authority?
Teach them to question authority?
Until we decide what education is for, how can we determine if it is working? And, if it is not, how to change it?
"My son spent all year diagramming sentences. He had no time for football!"
"My daughter wasted hour after hour in 'hands-on' classes that were just follow-the-cookbook rote exercises. She didn't learn a thing!"
"My child failed every standard test that he was given, but his teachers say that he has really great self-esteem!"
What do we really want from our educational system?

16. Thought-provoking questions
Mon, Jan 4, 1999 - /EST
Myria

ArtP, I love your post! What great questions. My short and gut reply is something I'm plagiarizing right out of the .sig file of a friend of mine:

Balance
Moderation
Variation

Now I'm going to go mull this over some before I reply with my long answer :-).

Betsy

22. In want of a solution
Mon, Jan 4, 1999 - 10:14 PM/EST
bronx1

I do love this thread. To me the debate over public education encapsulated the ideological conflicts that are occurring in this country far better than the debate over the president. All agree that reform is needed but the shape of that reform is what sends Sparks flying. This debate touches on what society should look like. We all would like to see, and need, greater parental involvement in children's lives and their education. But the very programs that could be supported are in contention.

There is debate about where a minimum wage should and the availability of health insurance. Both are needed in order that families have the time to spend their children. The idea of family leave was fiercly contested, and most companies give little more than a few weeks vaction for maternity leave. There is a great reluctance to promotion of women in their 30s because of the belief that they will eventually leave to bear children. The 40 work week is a farce in most of the service industry, which make up the largest growing sector of our economy.

Do we educate future employees or do we educate citizens who make carreer choices. Is the idea of a liberal education dead and do we need specilaization in our schools as early as high school as Sash has stared goes on in Eastern Europe. This is at the heart of the choices that should be made.

I do not propose any solutions but welcome the opportunity to hold such a debate. I recognize the diverse opinions that exist in this group, I do not agree with all of them, but would rather see a similar group deciding on these issues deciding on these issues than the current group of power brokers and big monied pawns that currently occupy our houses of government. I seek ideas as to how change, any kind of change can be accomplished.