The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 10, Thread 8.

37. Saddam, The Arab World, The Israilies
Thu, Jan 7, 1999 - 3:38 PM/EST
MOMof5

I've been wondering for the past few years why the Palestians, and Isralies, and all nations for that matter...don't declare Jerusalem a World City, or some such thing. It is the seat of most of our religious history and it seems to me that making it belong to everyone would be a good thing. Complicated of course, but might help with some of the negotiations.

The news these days about using the UN inspectors as spies...is anyone surprized? And so who cares. It's kind of what their job was, wasn't it?

38. World City
Thu, Jan 7, 1999 - 5:16 PM/EST
Jesse

That's a good idea, MOMof5. After all, I learned about sharing from watching Sesame Street.

It gets complicated when you ask questions like: what is a "world city," exactly? Who sets the laws? We're dealing with strong nationalist feelings rooted in very ancient religious traditions. What is the religious and/or cultural identity of the people living in such a city?

For myself, I don't have a problem with Jerusalem being a joint capitol of both Palestine and Israel. There are already Arab sections and Jewish sections. Sharing is in the best interest of everyone involved.

39. Sharing?
Thu, Jan 7, 1999 - 6:04 PM/EST
Doug

It seems that the Israelis don't want to share. Take a look at Israel's policies regarding who can live where, or set up business, etc. in Jerusalem. You will find that city leaders (all Israelis) have been, for years, systematically and brutally forcing Palistenians out of the city or into undesirable sections of the city. For example, if a Palestinian's home is found to be in violation of any building code, no matter how minor, the house is bulldozed. Not so, of course, with houses belonging to Israelis.

40. Sharing?
Fri, Jan 8, 1999 - 12:17 PM/EST
Jesse

You're right, Doug, but I would point out that in the last election nearly fifty percent of all Israeli voters supported Shimon Peres and the Labor Party. Our perception of Israel "not sharing" comes from our media, which focuses on Benjamin Netanyahu's anti-Palestinian policies. There is great support among the people of Israel for the peace process, and it's the people who live in the newer settlements who won't share. I want Israel to stop building new settlements until there is an independent Palestinian state.

Now, having said that, I think it's important for us to realize where Netanyahu's crappy attitude comes from, and why so many people in Israel are willing to support it. The Holocaust has changed everything (there's an understatement for you) and now that we, the Jewish people, have a globally recognized homeland, the desire to protect it often overrides greater humanitarian concern, or the perception that we still have a responsibility to treat our neighbors well, even though many of those neighbors have tried to kill us off at some point in the last six thousand years. The Palestinian charter, until very recently, did have a clause declaring a committment to the destruction of Israel. I'd be pretty scared living right next to THAT, but at the same time I can understand why it was there; the establishment of the modern state of Israel booted a whole bunch of people from their homes, and that's not okay either.

Everyone will have to make a concession here. I am disgusted with Netanyahu's bargaining in bad faith, and I think it's his turn to show some trust. Arafat has done a pretty good job lately. Over here in the states, though, it's hard for us to see how much support there is in Israel to get this underway so there is both land and peace for everyone involved.

Sorry this was so long. This is a big deal issue for me.

41. Sharing
Fri, Jan 8, 1999 - 8:03 PM/EST
Doug

Jesse,

In my previous post, I did not intend to disparage the Israeli people in any way. I truly believe, as you say, the the Israeli people are for peace.

It does seem, however, that in many ways the Palestinian people are treated as second class citizens in what is, at least in part, land that they have some claim to.

Do you think that lifting the social and economic status of the Palestinians would ameliorate some of the hostility that the two groups have toward one another and make it easier for sharing to occur?

42. Sharing
Fri, Jan 8, 1999 - 9:35 PM/EST
Jesse

Doug,

I didn't think you were disparaging the Israeli people. Sorry if it came across that way!

I do think that lifting the socio-economic status, as you say, would help with the hostility. I think the best way for us as Americans to participate in that is to encourage our leaders to recognize the legitimate Palestinian claim to the Gaza strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and other parts of that region, and to stop turning a blind eye to Netanyahu's transgressions of the Oslo accords and the more recent Wye River accords. Clinton's last visit to the region reveals just how much influence American presidents have in the Middle East when they behave diplomatically instead of hurling missiles, and I think we could have a big hand in improving the lives of the Palestinians.

As as Jew, I look forward to one day being able to visit a homeland that is both secure from terrorism AND respectful of it's neighbors who will one day (sooner rather than later) have a homeland of their own.

43. Lots of good stuff I am reading
Fri, Jan 8, 1999 - 9:46 PM/EST
Suze

WOW
I leave you guys alone for 3 days to buy a house and when I return we have Saddam, anti-Semitism,
Netanyahu vs Arafat,and the usual insanity in washington....notice the small letter.....resentments are growing here...
ahem
well....lets just begin by saying that one of the most enriching jobs I have ever held was the English instructor in an Orthodox Hebrew School where I met the incredible Elie Weisel...and many of my students' families were survivors of the Holocaust.....Having grown up in WASP South Carolina I was clueless as to their heritage and legacy or its impact on my own.....and the 4 years I spent there changed my life in many ways....Thousands of years of persecution in the form of slavery and pogroms which culminated in the Holocaust have worked into the fiber of the Israeli people a legitimate need for a place of their own ....and their place is dear to them in an intensely poignant way.

I can only begin to have compassion for their need to defend and protect it in the memory of their forefathers...and all the prophets and traditions and spiritual history they share with the Muslim and Islamic people pales in comparison to that need for a home....I mean, who can say what would happen here if our Native American people got the opportunity to take back their home??? I think that we, as a political country,are expecting the world to adopt some sort of "Manifest Destiny" attitude towards sharing the choicest pieces of land..with the same goals....and we are so arrogant as a country for expecting to convince these people when we have such a minute concept of their spiritual and religious mores and traditions and principles...I see Israel as a spiritual center of our world for many faiths and reasons....and I for one don't think its resolution is up to man, but I find the agitation and animosity disheartening to watch when I think of all that has already passed
and the US's muscle flexing is annoying to me....
i AM CONSTANLY AMAZED AT THE WAY WE SEEM TO KNOW WAHT IS "RIGHT" FOR THESE CIVILZATIONS WHO HAVE TREES OLDER THAN OUT COUNTRY...

44. Knowing What is Right
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 4:08 PM/EST
Jesse

Suze,

It's true that our governments self-appointed "world policeman" attitude reeks of arrogance. And since the United States is a mere two-hundred (and change) years old, it becomes that much more insulting. At the same time, we can't ignore the fact that we have tremendous influence on world events.

I'm not sure that the analogy to between Jews/Arabs and Native Americans/White Europeans works because in the case of the Native Americans, they were undeniably here first and the incoming Europeans undeniably slaughtered them. It's not clear who lived in Jerusalem first, so the initial claim on the territory is, at best, debatable. To me, the issue is no longer who was there first. Both Jews and Arabs have a right to a homeland, and what a chapter it would be in the history of both Arabs and Jews if we could figure out how to live together without trying to blow each other up.

Having said that, I don't think it's arrogant for the United States to participate in the peace process. We're not foisting a way of life on an unwilling population; we're encouraging an agreement between two bodies of people with a long, drawn out history of hositility. Now, if we were trying to set up governments and economic systems that look like ours (as we have done many times in the past) THAT would be arrogant.

45. Sesame Street mentality
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 8:30 AM/EST
MOMof5

I realize my vision of Jerusalem, was simplistic, I didn't mean to convey that thought quite that way. I'm aware that the logistics of such a thing would be monumental. But the world has so much history tied up right there. It seems that until all the people in that area are given the security that a real homeland means we won't get very far. Taking Jerusalem out of the squabble might help. I agree that the Isralies really need to see that the rest of the world doesn't want to take away thier rights to a homeland, we just want everyone in the area to have the same thing, a legitimate home.