The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 8, Thread 19.

9. A Truthful Picture
Sat, Jan 2, 1999 - 3:04 PM/EST
Frederick

I've let little details about my situation leak out here and there, but I've never thought to try to put it all together into a coherent picture.

Gemini2 mentioned that she broke off her engagement because she realized that her fiancee had serious personal problems. My life for the last 16 years is witness to what happens when you fail to break off a relationship with someone with serious problems. If I had any sense or any self esteem at all, I'd have left my fiancee with her parents and peeled out of their driveway on the way back to Texas 16 years ago when it became clear to me just how crazy her whole family was and just how disturbed she was. But I didn't, and here I am; soon to be the divorced father of 3 wonderful children who are very hurt by what's happening, but for whom, for all my efforts, I can't keep the marriage intact.

Since my wife and I did a dry run on a divorce 6 years ago, I've found that it's not nearly as painful the second time around. As I told myself at the time, there is no way I'd ever go through that kind of pain again.

What I find hard to accept about the sitution is that my wife can do this to me and to her own children without even having so much as a coherent reason for doing so. Even her own parents and friends don't understand it.

This has lead me to question the whole premise of no fault divorce and how we as a society got where we are with family law, which is where I gained my antipathy for certain forms of feminism.

Keeping things together has absorbed every ounce of my emotional energy for years. Seperating from my wife the second time was almost like walking off of a battlefield: the soldier thinks he should feel better but finds himself missing the sound of incoming morter shells and bullets whizzing overhead. Raised to a high level of alertness for the sake of survival of the marriage, there is now nothing to absorb my attentions; I miss the action.

Everything else in my life, including my career, has been on the back burner because of the marital problems for years. And my career has suffered for it. I'm roughly 3 years behind where I should be for promotion to full professor.

But there's not much point in being angry at my soon-to-be-ex-wife. I put myself in this situation, and it was my own personal weaknesses that lead me to do so.

So, I'm concentrating on disengaging my life from that marriage and that person and refocusing my energies on where it matters: My health, my career, my friends, my spirituality, and, possibly someday, a new relationship with someone who I can trust not to go nuts on me.

All this will take time. In the meantime, I'm venting in various ways, such as here.

13. Joy, Frederick
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 11:44 AM/EST
Gemini2

Frederick, I'm glad you got out from under the thumb of an evidently troubled person. From being with a couple of them myself, I know how their pretzel logic and constant blaming of others (you) for their problems can erode your self-esteem. In this last one, I felt like Ingrid Bergman in "Gaslight." My perceptions of reality were wrong, as far as he was concerned. I actually bought it for awhile. Until I finally went to a therapist, who sat for 20 minutes with folded hands listening to me tell the things my fiance was saying, then sighed and said, "Well, you can't expect a crazy person to make sense." The relief I felt was incredible. I wasn't crazy after all; it was him! Shortly thereafter, I cancelled the wedding. When we love someone, we try to accommodate them, try to buy their view of reality and ourselves. We want to bond with the loved one. But I discovered that giving up my self-esteem and confidence in my own judgment wasn't something I could give up.

I'm grateful for the experience, because it showed me how I was willing to sell myself out to be "loved" by someone. I since have learned to value myself and protect myself against unreasonable demands that I be someone else. I'm content with who I am, and since I began loving myself, it doesn't matter if someone else does or not. I feel so much more solid and unsinkable now.

14. P.S.
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 11:54 AM/EST
Gemini2

Joy, I know what it's like to struggle with a biochemical imbalance. I've been taking meds for depression since 1986. The ups and downs of my life have been tied closely to whether I was depressed or not. Few people realize that depression changes everything. It invades every part of your personality. It causes you to make poor choices, to become passive, or angry, unable to cope. I thank God for medication. At present, I'm feeling better than I ever have, thanks to St. John's Wort in addition to my current prescription, which hasn't been working well of late. My life is calm and happy. I can relax. I can enjoy peace. Thank God!

15. Gemini2
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 12:17 PM/EST
Joy

Yes. Thank God for medication. I am taking Zoloft to raise my seratonin level. Ive been on it for about a year now. I had no idea what Ive missed all these years! The relief and calm I have discovered. I can 'shut off' my irrational worry now.

I am just now beginning a therapy program to help me cope with medical procedures though. I suffered far too many as a child and far, far too many lies from people I trusted. A perfect set-up for an ocd problem! Telling people what I am afraid of is a huge first step for me. Emberrasing though! LOL My psychiatrist and my medical doctor are working together like a team. The last time I went to the doctor they had my psychiatrist on the phone and they broke out the pediatric nurses and exam procedures. You know, stethascopes with fuzzy animals, what have you. I still sobbed like a baby half laughing/half crying. But Im getting there! :-) Just a baby step.

16. Courage!
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 2:23 PM/EST
Gemini2

Joy, good for you for facing your challenge head-on. You're a strong woman. I know what courage it took you to make what you call a "baby step."

Sometimes it's hard for others to understand what effort it takes to make those steps, for someone who must deal with a biochemical imbalance and/or early childhood traumas. But I know. And I also know that though you must "walk through the valley of the shadow of death" to get to the root of the problems sometimes, you will come out into a peaceful meadow in the end. One way or another. Keep up the good work, girl!

17. To all
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 3:08 PM/EST
Joy

You know...the main thing I would try to impress on everyone is this....I am not a victim. Anyone can just flat-out choose not to be a victim. I have just experienced things that help me relate to people in just about any situation they may find themselves in. I may very well have been there before them! These are life lessons that have helped me grow as a person.

And I love my life. I savor each and every day. The biggest thing about my life that I am proud of is that I have finally summoned up the courage to get help for the OCD.

And I dont know if I would even call it courage. It was more a decision I made that I am worth getting help for my problem. That was a huge realization for me. I am dynamic and outgoing and fiesty. But you should see me if you get near me with a stethascope. Or if I find a mole that I think has changed. Or an unusual symptom of any kind. I'm a mess. I just decided to rid myself of those old demons and found an anxiety specialist. Terrified the whole way. But trying to function more as an objective observer of myself-to love myself.

Anyone can do that. Yes I have had some weird struggles throughout my life..but I dont let them define me. I am a professional, fiesty, little 100 lb dynamo! I dont understand the idea of quitting. It just doesnt compute.

19. Wow
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 4:11 PM/EST
Deborah

I'm very moved by what I'm reading, but not surprised. It's fatuous to say so, but every person on the planet has an amazing history of triumph,tragedy,ecstacy and pain.

Sometimes I have engaged in a bizarre form of snobbery by looking at people I envied and thinking, "YOU don't know what it is to suffer." Untrue, untrue. That's just comparing my insides to someone else's outsides.

Thank you for speaking up about your experiences.

Best regards from Deborah

20. Gemini2 and Joy
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 4:27 PM/EST
Frederick

Gee, is everyone here on antidepressants? Me, too!

Being an MD, I made the mistake of trying to treat myself when trouble really started 7 years ago. I remember driving around and around the downtown area, lost and confused, about to have a panic attack because my meds were out of whack. Since then, I've left management of my meds to another MD.

At that point, I was in terrific pain. My wife had me on the rack emotionally. I remember it as being a constant, unbearable, physical pain, as if someone was boring a hole in my gut day after day. Then with the first dose of antidepressant, the pain just went away in a matter of minutes -- a miracle. It had been two months before I even acknowledged my depression and started treatment, by far the two worst months of my life.

Whoever came up with the adage "physician, heal thyself" had rocks in his brains. I was too close to the problem to realize what was happening.

During this time I had to step away from my clinical duties because I didn't trust myself to take care of other people. It was another two months before I felt confident enough to do anything more than desk work even though my shrink thought I was OK well before that.

Gemini2, you hit the nail on the head when you spoke about living around such people distorting your sense of reality. I had an almost identical experience as you described. I finally swallowed my stupid male pride and went to see a shrink, partly at the insistence of a friend, who was becoming concerned about me. The psychiatrist listened to my story for 15 minutes, then pulled a textbook on Psychiatry down from the shelf and said, "See if this description reminds you of anyone."

He described my wife, word for word, right out of the textbook. The relief I felt was incredible. It wasn't me after all.

No, you can't expect a crazy person to make sense. Why hadn't I seen that? I was board certified in neurology and psychiatry, for Christ's sake! You were right again: with people we love we make excuses, go into denial, adjust our perceptions and do whatever it takes to try to bond with them. For me, it wasn't a matter of giving up self esteem; I didn't have any to begin with. I totally bought into the guilt trip she was laying on me. She had me jumping through hoops and doing hand springs trying to address what she thought were the problems, which were not the real problems at all.

It was only after I started refusing to buy into her crap that she started wavering and eventually decided that she wanted me back.

24. Joy
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 7:16 PM/EST
Gemini2

Your comment about "we are not victims" is so important. I'll tell you exactly what got me over my victim story for good: seeing myself telling that story on videotape. It was part of a Radical Honesty workshop I took a little over a year ago. After I finished telling it, Brad Blanton (workshop leader) said it was the second saddest story in the workshop. I didn't know whether to be proud or humiliated.

I didn't watch the tape 'til about two weeks after I got home from the workshop. Afraid to, I guess. Then, when I did, I was shocked. I didn't like the way I was presenting myself: self-pitying, powerless, blaming, etc., etc. What a wake-up call! I decided then and there that the victim story was dead. Per Brad's assignment, I went home and told my mother, for the first time, in detail, all my resentments toward her and a few appreciations. I wrote an account of it called, "How to Grow Up in 48 Years (and Two Hours)."

Since I let the lid off all that rage (my mother tolerated it surprisingly well), I feel an overwhelming tenderness and love toward my mother, deeper than I could have imagined. Before this, mind, I had wished her dead.

I am not a victim. I am me. You're right, Joy. The past is nonexistent. The only moment we have is Now. And Now. And Now.

25. Joy and Gemini
Sun, Jan 3, 1999 - 7:41 PM/EST
Deborah

Many thanks for your very challenging ideas about "victimhood." I will be mulling them over.

Best regards from Deborah

26. Victimhood
Mon, Jan 4, 1999 - 4:20 PM/EST
donald

This thread is inspiring. During the period 15 to 20 years ago I was "working through" the cruelties of my childhood that distorted me away from the perfect human I thought I should be. I no longer think I should be perfect, but should strive for perfection. I no longer have a fixed image of human perfection, but the guidance of what is moral and kind for direction toward an unknown perfection. I no longer think of the cruelties I suffered as a child, but recall the feelings when relating to persons still in victimhood or growing human beings. Deborah's observation that all of us have had amazing journeys is one constant I have found in all of my encounters with human beings. Do I hurt? yes. Do I have all the answers? no. Do I know that life goes on? YES!

Warmest regards to my group 8 friends
Donald