The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 9, Thread 31.

1. Parents and kids, Porn and Libraries
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - /EST
RatGirl

Okay -- did everyone else hear the story on NPR this morning about the woman who's suing the library for not having software to keep her son from loading down feelthy pictures off the Internet and passing 'em around at school?

Now, I don't have kids, and I know a lot of you do. So -- somebody help me figure this out. Isn't it more the responsibility of the parent to raise a kid who doesn't want to do something like that more than it's the responsibility of the library to keep people from looking at feelthy pictures? Or am I being a naive non-parent?

Ratso

2. Porn?
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 8:04 AM/EST
Sharon

I heard that and had pretty much the same reaction you did! I do have kids - 21 and 23 yr old sons so we are a little past this point - by the time we got the Internet they were both over 18! At that point (and probably before) they both did their share of delving into the world of porn, but if I hadn't instilled in them the correct attitude toward women, it was way too late (and believe me, that was a BIG part of their upbringing!)!

I think the case should be thrown out of court - the library is not there to babysit this woman's child - if she cannot trust him not to look at porn on the computer, than SHE is the one that has to sit with him and supervise! If this were a school library, she might have a legitimate complaint, but in a public library...I am pretty sure protection of kids from 'questionable' material, electronic or print, is NOT in their charter! And I wouldn't want it to be!

3. Been there, done that
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 8:08 AM/EST
Kola

Ms. Rat, I'm absolutely with you on this one. When my daughters were growing up, I often wondered if my "parenting" (hate that word!) style was too casual, but in retrospect it compares awfully well with the amazingly irresponsible way parents are behaving now.

I've never been a big advocate of public schools, but it's clear they're being held responsible for way too much, and the real victims, of course, have been the children.

That said, I'm realistic enough to know even the most assiduous parental training probably couldn't compete with the hormonal imperatives that govern the lives of the pubescent. To the extent that kids surfing porno is perceived as a problem in a school environment, some controls (software or otherwise) are, perhaps, called for. To sue the school district for damages, however, is very, very silly.

BTW, looking forward to another 4 weeks of bantering with you all!

4. is not about software,the real obscenity....
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 9:11 AM/EST
alan O.

complicated issue...i think you folks are right but there is a but... in a society such as ours, where it is pretty well accepted that both parents must work and tv sets are baby sitters, consumerism is king and peer group pressure is greater than ever (helps fill the vacuum of working parents). we must take this into consideration when assigning responsibility to parents.

remember not all parents are able to give our kids what we gave/give our kids (except for ratzo). i think the problem is that no one wants to deal with the problem of just why parents aren't parenting, that's parenting properly. again people are in this mess way above their heads and are desperately seeking help.

i wonder if this woman also thinks taxes should be progressive, that we should have national health care etc. or is she one of the who preach the right wing cowboy/girl individualism, your on your own agenda? to me that is the real obscenity - that hypocrisy. i apologize for sounding like a broken record but...remember when we use the argument, that this woman should be responsible herself as a parent, that is exactly the argument the conservatives use against progressive people such as us, and on so many issues.

of course we should all take responsibility...but that is dependent on being capable of taking responsibility. when people are not able or capable, we (society as a whole) then must figure out a way for them to become responsible. but in a system that does teach/promotes/foster people to being responsible this creates a big problem. so i ask why wasn't that mother on npr not able to parent properly, that is the question. it's not about software thanks.

6. libraries & censorship
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 10:48 AM/EST
LouisC

I work as a computer programer for a private university, and my primary responsibility is support of the university libraries computer software. When we started to make internet access available in our libraries, the issue of pornography, and limiting access was talked about. Of course we are dealing with university students, so we aren't taking about young children, but the basic idea that was agreed upon is since we don't censor the books we offer on our shelves, we also wouldn't try to limit what was available over the internet.

Should the public library the woman is suing also have to remove books from it's collection that are not appropriate for children? Are they supposed to post a security guard at certain locations in the library, to make sure minors don't go to a particular shelf? Isn't putting that kind of software on their computers the same thing?

This is not to say it's an easy issue to deal with. At our library, for example, we have had students complain that they see other students pulling up pornographic images on their computer screens in plain view of other patrons. We have a large number of computers in our libraries, and it would not be practical to place them so they cannot be seen by other patrons.

7. Yep, and...
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 10:51 AM/EST
owl kathy

I agree, Alan. I, too, have noticed this trend away from personal responsibility and toward finding somebody, ANYBODY, else to blame. (e.g. the lady that sued McDonald's because she scalded herself with her coffee [who doesn't know that coffee out of a coffeepot is hot?!]; smokers who blame the tobacco companies for their cancer [who hasn't known for 30 years now that smoking will give you cancer?!]; and now this mom, bless her!)

When did this start? Does it have anything to do with the growth of the "victim" mentality (hate to call it that, but couldn't think of better term)? How wide-spread is it, or are we all still pretty responsible and these examples strike us and draw attention because of their rareness and "extremeness."

8. and...
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 10:57 AM/EST
owl kathy

Here's the next suit: Guy (person) driving down the street talkin' on the cell phone. Attention's divided. Causes an accident. Sues the cell phone company!! *giggle* Sorry--just couldn't resist!

9. Um.
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 11:01 AM/EST
RatGirl

"Desperately seeking help" parenting to me doesn't equate with suing a public library because you didn't teach your kid that handing out pictures of naked ladies to your schoolyard pals might not be such a hot idea. Considering the kind of issues that this sort of legal action will cause across the US, I personally don't think that this is really a good excuse, although it might qualify for an underlying reason.

Rick? Barrister? Do you think she has a case?

ratso

10. call me mr. root cause....
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 11:25 AM/EST
alan O.

wooooooooow! hey ratzo hold your horses....i'm only saying that social/economic/political etc. conditions have created a situation where this npr gal wants to sue the library. i am not for suing (i agree it's nuts), but i'm saying what kind of society have we become that gets people to that point of suing in place of parenting. and more important what are we going to do about it?

i am not in the blame game here, i am trying to offer insight and a possible road to a possible solution to a definite problem. what good does it do anyway to say that this nutty npr woman is nutty - end of sentence! we need the next sentence; let's take the next step and ask why is, and what causes her behavior to sue instead of parent properly? then we can begin to begin to even think about changing the behavior. you get my drift? call me mr. root cause.

12. Continuing on the same subject...
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 12:01 PM/EST
Sharon

First - alan - we aren't talking about the library in a public school - that would be a different situation. This is a public library - not just for children. Has nothing to do with public schools - and that is another subject entirely that I don't want to get into.

owlkathy - I agree that there are ridiculous lawsuits - but I am so tired of hearing about the woman who sued McDonalds - this has grown into one of those urban myths. Don't get me wrong - this woman did end up suing, but only after she had originally gone to the management of McDonalds and they dismissed her. The cup was not closed properly, the coffee was WAY too hot, and all she wanted originally was to get her medical bills paid. It was only AFTER she was rebuffed that it grew into such a big deal.

OK - off my soapbox.

13. a gal named sue....
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 12:53 PM/EST
alan O.

sharon, what i am saying doesn't matter - public, private, school library or any library. please don't misunderstand me. i also am against this lawsuit but... all i am saying is that i just want to find out why the npr gal would get to the point where she feels the need to sue. if we can understand how the situation came about, why the kids behave the way they do, why the parents feel they can't control their own kids, etc. then we can begin to begin to solve the problem. we agree!!! i just want to see if we can stop these lawsuits before they begin!!!!!

now i am bit confused since you then go on to defend the woman in the mcdonald's coffee law suit. that's comparing coffee to tea, not coffee to coffee. totallly different circumstances. you made you case for her suing mickydees very well. thanks.

15. Boomer Parenting...
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 4:28 PM/EST
Sharon

alan, I am not defending the MickeyD suit - only explaining it.

17. i rest my case...maybe
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 7:02 PM/EST
alan O.

hello! i think i am not coming in clearly and i take full responsibility for poor communications. why have we created so many unbalanced parents out there?

i'm trying to deal with psychological- sociological dynamic of the society. it is possible to be a good, well intended parent today and still have to deal with all the other input that children have throughout in life. my sense is that people are neither born good nor bad, but just born waiting to be formed. that people become who they are due to the input that they absorb. note i don't dicount genetics.

my point is that the npr gal(should we call her sue? ha ha ha) is not one of a kind but that there many others sues out there like her. that when a form of behavior becomes so widespread and not isolated we must look to the role that society plays in contributiting to that behavior. something is amiss in our society.

sharon i have NO DOUBTS that you & your husband are good parents just by the kind of person you come across via this forum. but think of all the possibilities that could of happened so that your kids might have gone down the wrong path. i know that you are a person who has values that are based in family, and decent ethics and people come before things. news bulletin: you are unfortunately parenting against the on coming tide of a different ethic in society. people who might be a little weaker or more vulnerable to social pressure unable to be as strong a parent as maybe you or i or ratzo or owl might be, opens the door for other influences. a vacuum occurs and videos, computer games, pornography (that could be another subject), the religious right, you name it. the whole crap cultural out there just fills in where nothing is there. we have no extended families, communities are places where people live and go off to work and don't form a sense of "community". people shop in malls and main street is gone and it took those familiar faces with it.

i think you know what i'm getting at (i hope). we need to understand that sue is an unhappy person, who is not able to control her life let alone her kid's. this happens when people are alienated. we are a society of increasing alienation from work, to play, to the public's disgust with politics (remember the impeachment) etc. i feel both sorry for sue and also the effect of her being alienated. it is not simple to solve, but i know she is not going away. she and all the other sues have to be dealt with because they give birth to little sues. something is rotten & not just in denmark. people are not just out of balance there is a reason. it is our responsibilty to find the reason in order to bring back balance. i promise to say no more on the subject. but don't read my lips. thanks.

18. Bi-cycles made for two
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 7:44 PM/EST
RatGirl

Cycles, cycles, cycles. There are complaints back in the time of the Caesars about kids not having respect for their elders and a deletorious drop in the manners and education and people not bringing up their children properly.

ARE there that many unbalanced parents out there now? People were complaining about this very subject right before the turn of the century, too. Is it perhaps sociological that more people can now afford to DO something like sue someone?

Maybe we're assuming our time is more special than it really is. Maybe this is a normal human thing. Maybe we just hear about it more now.

Thoughts?

rg

19. Blame the media...
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 8:47 PM/EST
Sharon

alan - I do understand your point - RG - I think you have hit the nail on the head. There ARE terrible things going on 'out there' - bad or non-existent parenting, children murdering children, various and sundry beings committing (sp?) unspeakable acts on other beings, etc.. IMHO, this has ALWAYS gone on, to one extent or another, sometimes more, sometimes less. One thing is for sure - when it goes on now, we ALL hear about it - ALL about it, IMMEDIATELY, from all sides, all walks of life, in print, on the radio, in the papers, on the Net, etc.. Can't get away from it even if we try! I really don't think there is anything new - just new ways of looking at things, or hearing about them.

Everything old is new again...even the bad stuff!

20. Next up:
Fri, Jan 15, 1999 - 9:59 PM/EST
RatGirl

So I wonder if one can do anything about it?