The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 8, Thread 29.

3. And we're off!
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 11:08 AM/EST
Hey-Mike

Situation one: It happened that my oldest child, fourteen at the time, became pregnant. I was not told of this until a year ago by that child, who is now thirty-two. I won't bore you with the anger and frustration bit. I will say that, while my ex disallowed 'dad-bashing' she also systematically undermined nearly all of my principles with the children over the following years. (I'm against tattoos and piercings - two oldest girls had ears pierced a week after divorce) The questions are: As a (paying) father, wasn't I entitled to know of this pregnancy? Wasn't my child entitled to my counsel too? (My ex advised and then expedited an abortion. I would have advised Catholic Charities.)

Situation two: Some time later, one of my three daughters was molested by her stepfather. Again, I was not appraised of the situation (read, 'not in jail for life without parole') for ten years or so. Another of my daughters, I have learned, holds me, "responsible," (though I believe she means "culpable," I'm using the direct quote).

Opinions, please? (and I mean that - I'd like opinions devoid of any concern for my feelings - throat is bared)

5. father's rights
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 12:56 PM/EST
Rick

If it's any consolation, what you are talking about sounds familiar from working with fathers in that situation. The reality in this country after divorce is that, as far as the 'fatherhood' role goes, fathers lose out. But don't forget to pay.

I've heard a lot from divorced women, too. They also have valid complaints. But their's tend to be entirely different.

Divorce always hurts everybody. (Cliche' for the day.)

6. Hey-Mike are you willing to provide
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 2:18 PM/EST
donald

some additional details?

For situation 1, the pregnancy and abortion were in 1980 or 81?? You didn't know until '97?? Eldest daughter told under what circumstances, i.e.: complaining? in the context of other issues? asking about your role?

For situation 2, how did you learn of the molestation 10 years after the fact? In retrospect, is there anything that should have caused you to suspect such activity? What is the basis the daughter that blames you uses for your responsibility? Absenteeism? Did you move away from your family or did your family move away from you?

The first conclusion is that your ex could care less about your daughters, but is that really so?

I'm not sure what I think beyond thinking that men need to be more careful who they share their seed with.

7. Hey-Mike
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 3:08 PM/EST
Joy

My goodness. From the little you have said about your daughters, it sounds like they are grown and just trying to work out their old issues. You can't hold yourself responsible for things you didnt know. We all have things to overcome in our lives and your daughters will have to work through their problems in their own ways, in their own time. My husband has a 19 year old daughter from a previous marriage. She caused more waves and misery in her visits with us than I would have dreamed possible! She knew how to work on her dad's emotions like playing a violin. We tried to express our beliefs to his children too, his ex wife forced his daughter to start birth contriol pills at 13. We were appalled, but looking back on it now it was probably the best thing that could have happened. We managed (as far as we know)to make it through her visitation years without a pregnancy. But the grief she brought on us all was unbelievable! It is possible your daughters are 'punishing' you for not bailing them out of their trouble and trying to work on your guilt. Kind of a - 'I hurt so you should too!' mentality. Don't fall victim to it. Stand up for yourself and they will respect you for it.

8. Details - with reluctance
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 4:34 PM/EST
Hey-Mike

Both revelations came during conversations. The former, when my oldest took a surprisingly pro-choice stance and I inquired about it. The latter was stated by someone who was, "reaching out." I would have to assume all of your reasons, Donald.

Now please understand this: I'm not having a problem with any of this and am in no way soliciting sympathy. I'm looking for opinions only. I have a great many questions, like the one Joy brushed on regarding adolescents and birth control. I swear by (someone or other) that I'm okay with my part of the situations and am deeply interested in how others see them and would deal with them. I do thank David and Rick for their compassionate replies.

9. Hey-Mike
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 5:02 PM/EST
Gemini2

I agree wholeheartedly with Joy's assessment. Don't agree to be a fall guy. Inevitably, when people begin the healing process, they start with blame. But eventually, most people learn to move past blaming and focus on healing. Please don't be discouraged; some of us are slow learners of self-responsibility.

You did not do the molesting, you did not cause the pregnancy. You are not to blame. And if your wife chose to move 1/3 of the country away, you couldn't possibly have done anything about either one (unless you knew something and failed to act, which evidently, you didn't).

I imagine there was no sinister motive, like thwarting your will, behind anything your wife did. It's probably simply that she was there day-to-day and was the one to whom the decision-making fell.

10. Hey-Mike, it seems
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 5:07 PM/EST
donald

your divorce and ex-wife abducted some of your parental responsibility. When responsibilities are gone, so are rights. I agree with Joy, your adult children seem to be working through their issues. As long as you know you did all you could to meet their needs given the circumstances then recognize it's their life and you can't live it.

My own children are making choices contrary to what I have taught them by example and word. To the extent I can influence these choices by monetary support or withdrawal and other reasonable and appropriate household disciplinary measures (grounding, etc.)I will. To the extent that they are old enough and smart enough to deceive me and engage in disapproved activities behind my back, it is their life and they will suffer the consequences. Fortunately, their choices have not been severe life changing choices like drug addiction or prison offenses.

Watching my baby sister use "tough love" with her only son (crack addicted, his addiction has created a heart condition and he will probably not survive to age 30)has taught me that once our adolescent children begin making adult choices, it is their life.

12. Hey-Mike
Thu, Jan 21, 1999 - 6:09 AM/EST
Frederick

What were the terms of your divorce? Did you have joint custody or did your wife have sole custody? Did you have a legal right to be informed of your children's medical condition, etc?

I ask because I've got joint custody and I'm supposed to have access to all relevant medical, educational and other information concerning the kids as well as the right to make a lot of decisions for them unilaterally or jointly, such as consent for medical procedures. I'm wondering if any of this is enforceable in practice.

My understanding is that in a sole custody situation the non-custodial parent has no right to a lot of this information and no right to make any decisions concerning the children, which leaves one with the right to visitation and the obligation to pay child support only.

13. Frederick
Thu, Jan 21, 1999 - 8:25 AM/EST
Hey-Mike

In upstate New York in the mid seventies 'joint custody' was still considered by the courts as one of those radical liberalist concepts. When I requested consideration for custody, the judge actually chuckled (they don't enter chuckles in court records it seems). To get custody I would have been required to prove that my ex was on narcotics, mentally unstable and promiscuous. Legally, there is no implication of parental rights as far as information goes. I was wondering about the moral issue.

I have a friend who says, for example, that I absolutely should have been informed of the molestation but that the abortion was none of my business; that it was a private thing that a fourteen year old should decide who would be involved and who would know what. To those of you who have (or have had) fourteen year old children I ask how you view such privacy rights. Is any parent bound to them as far as the other parent is concerned (which assumes that the parent didn't make the decision in the first place)? Should one parent make such a decision to restrict knowledge from the other?

15. Childrens privacy, parental rights, divorce
Thu, Jan 21, 1999 - 9:23 AM/EST
Joy

You know..we are discussing a subject here that makes the impeachment debate seem unimportant. These are the real issues of life...the really hard stuff. I think the only conclusion we can come to is that we just dont know the answers. These are the things that you just have to endure and hope love will conquer all. And try not to obsses yourself into misery about.

Frederick:

I know you are just beginning to face some of these issues. I have experienced alot of what you are going through and I can tell you this, and so will most other people who have gone through it, There are no real answers. You just try to take it a day at a time and look for the good in your day. Dwell on the positive and try to distance yourself from the negative. We tried - unsuccessfully alot of the time - to create a calm, relaxed atmosphere for my husbands kids when they visited us. We wanted to give them a break from their insane screwy mother when they were here. We tried everything, court orders to keep her away-counseling, you name it. But nothing worked.

You just have to remember time is your best friend.