The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 12, Thread 4.

1. hatred/intolerance/ethnic cleansing
Mon, Dec 28, 1998 - 7:39 PM/EST
Willy

I can understand disliking someone you've know for quite a while. I can understand being put off by someone's first impression. I can really understand not enjoying the company of the person sitting next to you on the bus. But I can't understand the basis for hatred or intolerance I've heard about in the news. Situations like Northern Ireland (with the protestants and catholics), Bosnia (Serb, Croats, Ethnic Albanians). I can't pretend understanding Hitler and the Jews, or the Jim Crow laws of our own past. Can anyone help me understand where such fierce negative feelings come from? Am I overeducated, too open-minded, or just too blind?

2. Hatred/Intolerance/Ethnic Cleansing
Mon, Dec 28, 1998 - 8:05 PM/EST
Light

I don't know how far we can go with this thread. I think most of us are ignorant of this depth of hatred. Conceptual discussion is just that. Concepts really lead us nowhere but our own fantasies.

I am trying to imagine a really strong feeling where I care about nothing else but myself. I have had it when I was in a hurry and aimed for the stoplight, it was yellow, and I sailed through. I thought not of the people I could hurt, just me and "getting there"

I imagine this depth of hatred is something consuming, something out of the deepest fear, possibly a petrifying fear of death. When I hate this deeply, everything I say and do spews this hatred. I catch the weaklings of the times in my rethoric. They are just looking for something like this to feed their fire. Thses people need their fires fed. We are a group.

By now, the fire is monstrous and spreading. Intelligence is gone. More fuel, more fire. War starts and never ends. Hatred is breakfast, lunch and dinner, then our dreams.

3. Hatred, et al
Mon, Dec 28, 1998 - 9:33 PM/EST
Myria

Boy, I have to agree with you , Light. I doubt anyone here can empathize with the kind of hatred Willy is struggling to understand. I don't know if I WANT to understand! I can speculate, and that and some change, well, you know.

I think in some cases (Hitler), hatred is born of insanity, pure and simple. In some cases, it's ignorance. In other cases, it's brainwashing. Most cases are probably some combination of the three.

I have experienced some degree of road rage myself. And in some ways I think that is a good analogy, probably one of the few ways we can empathize with mindless hatred of someone else. And the first thing that popped into my mind when I got on that track was *dehumanization*. When you are on the road, it's easy to think of other cars as just that: other cars...hunks of moving metal....and forget about the humanity which inhabits them. Human flesh that is a mother, father, daughter, son, sister, brother, each one engaged in their own dramas that are their lives.

Unfortunately, I think the Internet can have the same effect on some people. It's easy for some people to forget that these typed messages are flowing from the fingertips of living, breathing human beings. I've seen people (myself included!) behave in ways on Internet forums they would never DREAM of doing in their real life interaction.

Back to ways in which we dehumanize those we hate. Labels and stereotypes also have a dehumanizing effect. That's why ethnic slurs are so powerful....they dehumanize the individuals at which they are aimed, and the person who is hating can more easily forget that the individual they are hating has a family, hopes and dreams.

4. de-humanizing
Mon, Dec 28, 1998 - 9:45 PM/EST
tbob

In WW2 we at home experienced the attempts to de-humanize the Japanese. The word 'propaganda' was popular at the time. Cartoons and selected news stories were aimed at making the 'Japs' seem sub-human.

Charismatic leadereship also plays an imortant role -- especially Hitler -- maybe hypnotizing is a better word.

5. Feeding Frenzy
Tue, Dec 29, 1998 - 12:11 PM/EST
rightbrain

Perhaps the same thing that motivates us to watch MSNBC for hours for the latest about Monica and Bill, or the reason freeway traffic slows to a crawl when there is an accident- is also the motivating force behind hatred and abuse. We are at first curious, and then somehow drawn to the perverse. With the charismatic leadership tbob mentions, anything can be carried from being just mildly curious to becoming down right reckless.

Having been in an abusive relationship for 16 year, I can at least relate to the escalation of hatred and violence that builds up when someone or some group has the misbegotten notion that they are absolute power.

6. Hatred, etc.
Tue, Dec 29, 1998 - 1:10 PM/EST
Milt

Willy, et al.

Does it help to try to distinguish between anger and hatred? Anger is what you feel when someone is doing something bad to you, e.g., a hold-up man has a gun on you and is saying, "Your money or your life." You probably feel anger toward him.

If, however, you proceed to generalize and say that hold-up man was a member of a certain group within society, e.g., a racial or religious group, and you then project your anger on to all members of the group perhaps that expanded form of anger is hatred. It is anger multiplied by all members of the group and so it is larger and more intense.

I don't know if this adds anything to an understanding of the nature and intensity of hatred, but maybe it does.

Milt

7. Hatred
Tue, Dec 29, 1998 - 1:30 PM/EST
Buddy

Wow, the comments on this thread have been thought provoking. I, too, think we have enough hatred here in America that we don't have to try to understand foreign modes. Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center track hate groups in America and have noted a steady rise from the mid-1980s. While many groups say that they are Patriot groups, and in their mind they probably are, those very same groups espouse some harsh religious and racial views.

I've noted with horror the growth of the Klan and Skinheads. In my area, northern Indiana, there have been a good number of Klan rallies. Usually there are opposing rallies, but I've noticed that the Klan's numbers are increasing. What is the basis of hatred? Is it as social scientists have long argued, namely economic circumstances, job displacement, etc.?

I'm troubled by our tolerance of hatred and extreme views. I don't necessarily want them outlawed, but I think those who oppose such views should stand tall. We should remember that we are all capble of great inhumanity whether in a car, online, or in a voting booth.

8. my response to road rage
Tue, Dec 29, 1998 - 8:28 PM/EST
Willy

Thanks for all the input, these are some really thought provoking ideas. I didn't put it in my bio, but I am a gay man, of only average height. And no, I have not been victimized by anyone.

I see from most of these responses that road rage is fairly common, even among a group that is willing to be enlightened by opposing points of view. I, too, used to suffer from road rage, especially while I lived in Detroit, MI. One day I decided that I was no longer willing to let some anonymous idiot have power over my mood or ruin my day just by cutting me off in traffic. Besides, I spent good money on my car, I have a good radio (and tapedeck, when applicable)--Why shouldn't I enjoy the time I spend in my vehicle? Since then, I've not felt nearly as angry on the streets (armed with a 2 ton hunk of steel as a weapon!)

11. H-I & EC
Wed, Dec 30, 1998 - 1:15 AM/EST
ingres

Having been raised during WW2, I can remember the attitude of many people I knew, against the Japanese who were Americans...shameful! as I looked back on it many years later. I also remember the days of segregation...

After my parents divorced when I was 4, my mother found a black woman (Hattie) who was dependable, a good worker, loved kids and she hired her to take care of me while she worked at 2&3 jobs to keep us alive. We were poor too and looking back on those years, we lived together as a family. Hattie, her husband, my mother and I, we all lived under the same roof of that big house. I went shopping with Hattie, riding streetcars to "her part" of St. Louis, where I was the only white person...did we have any problems? no, it was fun and the people in the black neighborhoods were friendly to me too. I rode in the back of the buses and streetcars when I was with Hattie, holding her hand very tightly. Yes, we were supposed to use separate bathrooms, but I've been in plenty of "colored" facilities when I was very young.

Hattie and her husband were fun too. We laughed together, cried together, ate together and I wept bitterly when Hattie and her husband left for other work. I wasn't raised with the predjudice, and have a hard time dealing with the race issues ... especially with my husband who had never seen a black person until he enlisted in the Navy in 1955. He was raised in a dairy farming community in Illinois. It is odd to see the difference in our reactions.

I think though, Hitler was a devil in his own right.In watching historic programs on the Hitler era, I find it really alarming to see young men follow him as if he were a god. Young men who came from decent families and God fearing people, but turned so dark and evil. Yet, we see that today in the various "militia" type groups that seem to have surfaced over the past few years. It seems to me to be a two edged sword that we have to allow their extreme views & hatred toward non-white people, but yet the very Constitution we hold up protects these extreme views and hatred and perpetuates this extremism within this country.

Yes, I agree with all who have posted, these three topics are difficult to understand.

12. Hatred...Prejudice...Constitution
Wed, Dec 30, 1998 - 1:42 AM/EST
Buddy

I continue to be interersted by the postings to this thread. Something Ingres wrote, namely "It seems to me to be a two edged sword that we have to allow their extreme views & hatred toward non-white people, but yet the very Constitution we hold up protects these extreme views and hatred and perpetuates this extremism within this country" prompted me to think of an appropriate analogy." I kept coming back to this question that I hope the other members of the group can help answer. If an armed militia group comprised primarily of black members advocated ignoring or working to destroy the government existed, would they be allowed to continue? Let alone train openly, distribute print material, or operate underground radio stations. I don't think the government would be content to monitor their movement without action. I think the freedom that Ingres mentioned does exist, in theory, for some, but not for everyone. What role does the "radical fringe" really play in our society?

13. Keep thinking deep thoughts!
Wed, Dec 30, 1998 - 11:29 AM/EST
rightbrain

Buddy, this is an interesting thought about whether the government would be as tolerant of black militants. If we look back over the past thirty years, the answer is probably "yes" as the black militant movement is now behind us, thanks to Martin Luther King. I knew a number of Black Panthers whose single goal was to father as many children as possible to aid in the militant movement. I lived in Indianapolis, and the militant movement there in the early 70's was quite lively. The radical fringe has always reared its head historically in most countries-even communistic ones. The question is "how do we spread our views- by violence or by peace means?" As for monitoring our movement- we're all being watched- have you seen Enemy of the State?

16. An answer, perhaps
Thu, Dec 31, 1998 - 11:41 AM/EST
Buddy

Andre, you raise an interesting question regarding the possibility of horrors happening in America. Unfortunately, I not only believe that they can, they already have. During World War II, the internment of Japanese-American citizens caused untold horros. While some may say that exterminations did not take place, and they are correct, the psychological and emotional horror the victims endured was devastating. The numbers of people who committed suicide during and after the internment are staggering. Without mentioning the loss of property or funds, the lingering effects of the internment has been felt by two generations of Japanese-Americans.

I worry about what we do for the sake of national security, primarily because that term and subsequent practices have been so overused. It's as if we accept that personal liberties can be suspended during those times. Consequently, we had the internment during the 40s, McCarthyism during the 50's, the monitoring and infiltration of civil rights groups during the 60's, and covert and overt support of revoutionary efforts in Latin America in the 70's and 80's. And I dare not bring up examples from before the 20th Century. Perhaps a more insiduous form of repression is underway as we speak. A friend, while driving from Florida to Indiana, was stopped in Georgia by a state trooper.

The state trooper asked him if he supported the war on drugs, a necessary component of our national security. My friend said that he did support efforts to limit drug trafficking. The trooper then said that if my friend supported those efforts, then surely he wouldn't mind a search of his car. Mind you, he hadn't been ticketed for any traffic violation (nor was he subsequently ticketed) and his wife and ten year old child were in the car. The trooper implied that if he didn't allow a search, then he could be detained, his car impounded, and his trip delayed for hours.

While these tactics don't come close to equating with ethnic cleansing or other forms of exterminaitons, I think we have become de-sensitized to the personal liberties we have lost...or at least some people have lost right in front of our eyes. That my friend was black further complicates the equation.

So, Andre, I think we are capable of atrocities because recent events have proven that we are more than capable. I've never been one prone to support of conspiracy theories or hyperbole, but I do wonder if people share my concern with the not-so-subtle forms of repression in our midst. Am I crazy or what?

17. You're NOT crazy
Thu, Dec 31, 1998 - 11:52 AM/EST
MichaelD

I completely agree with you. We have already started down the "cleansing" path. You give an excellent example. Our personal freedoms are at risk - more so every day. While we as a society have not yet gone to the extreme, we routinely "target" individuals or groups for extra scrutiny. Don't believe me? Ask a young, black male. The next step, and not too big a step, is preemptively acting against those "targets".

So, I think you're right on target BUDDY. And the truly scary part is we are allowing our elected officials to LEGISLATE the removal/diminishing of our freedoms.

MichaelD

20. Fear of Loss
Fri, Jan 1, 1999 - 10:56 AM/EST
Light

I think we're onto something. Does expressed hate have to do with fear of some type of loss? I am thinking of the worst losses. Could hatred arise from man made issues such as economic loss or job loss? Maybe. I know a lot of people, though, thriving in spite of turbulent economic conditions and job insecurity.

Could hatred be from the fear of deeper losses like loss of expression or loss of spirit? It seems like hatred would have to have a very strong encompassing and demonic seed.

I don't really know much about Hitler. I know he spoke brilliantly and captivated many minds. I imagine Hitler responded to a savage fear that caused him to resurrect his "disappearing" spirit on a daily basis. His need was so great that he needed millions of others to shore him up and keep his spirit alive. Without that pernicious fear, but with as deep a compassion, what would Hitler's message have been?

The problem was, so many people were ready to be lured into his rhetoric without thought that an unstoppable hate machine was created fueled minute by minute by an all encompassing fear of loss.

Now on a smaller basis, we live in a separated society-this religion vs that; party vs party; income vs income; car vs car; position vs position; my wonderful child vs that child, my child's problem and medication vs how it should be, etc.

Why do we attach ourselves for dear life to our perceptions? To define ourselves? To shore ourselves up in comparison to what?

Do our perceptions perhaps allow us our expression, our spirit? We hang on for dear life. Try a discussion about political parties in general society. Rage occurs. What would happen if we didn't talk about these things? What would we talk about?

We are hanging on to something much deeper than what's out there in politics. What are our assumptions behind our "opinions"? I think that is a can of worms. I propose that within our assumptions is where hate lives, within disrupted, thwarted, and unfinished dreams. We have to have the courage to go very deep to discomfort to see our way out. How long can we look at our assumptions behind each strong feeling we have?

21. To Light:
Fri, Jan 1, 1999 - 10:18 PM/EST
DAVIDR

I think you hit it right on the head. Hatred comes from fear of loss, or maybe fear and the possiblity of loss.

The more I think about that, the more I think it's true in just about ALL relationships.