The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 9, Thread 31.

41. Language, syntax and jargon
Mon, Jan 18, 1999 - 3:04 PM/EST
BOB

Having read this thread, I see the same words and thoughts coming up as if they had an inherent meaning. For those of us not up on the latest social studies jargon, maybe alan (of the missing upper case) can explain this sentence: "if we don't socialize our citizens properly, they act antisocial." HuH? What is the transitive verb "to socialize" (something)? Sounds a little like gving them a good beating "for their own good." Do you put our citizens in stocks and feed them a good dose of socialize?

I'd suggest to those who have written in this thread that you check these neologisms for the accurate depiction of what you want to say. The English language is so very rich in words and syntactical options there is no need for a loose, "you know" type of development. I think we'd all understand better, particularly while discussing high-level abstractions like freedom, home and love, if the terms used could be used in any ordinary conversation at the local coffee house or bar.
No offense, I just feel full of mushy ideas about raising and educating children that I don't understand. Clarity in anon-elotist way, please.

45. guess what bob-OFFENSE & just answer one question...
Tue, Jan 19, 1999 - 7:39 AM/EST
alan O.

how big and how deep is that thing that is up your ass? wow i was just wondering who died and appointed bobbie english teacher with a little red pencil. must say i'm not above constructive criticism nor would i assume for a sec (bob is it okay to use sec?) to be the great communicator, nor speller, nor writer like bobbie. i apologize for being an artist and that i just happen to be a visual person. i am so sorry. i should have known i had no right to write how big and how deep is that thing that is up your ass? for someone who claims to be in the business of communicating you sure do a good job of turning people off. oh i forgot bobbie, you canžt understand what i wrote because itžs all in lower case.

46. Count to ten...
Tue, Jan 19, 1999 - 7:50 AM/EST
Sharon

OK, alan - now tell us how you REALLY feel! :-}

49. Alan and Bob
Tue, Jan 19, 1999 - 8:49 AM/EST
MaryL

Calm down, guys. Let's stick to civilly discussing the issues raised. I must say, tho, Alan, that I often skip your posts, because the e. e. cummings style and minimalist grammer do make your posts difficult to follow. But I'm an accountant, not an artist, so perhaps the failing is mine.

Mary Lynn

50. Language, again
Tue, Jan 19, 1999 - 7:02 PM/EST
BOB

Well, well, well . . .did I strike a nerve? Did I offend a small group of those who have to be right?

Since I confess to being a curmudgeon, my first post was written because it was what I felt and the offense I felt as an "outsider". I do not cry victimhood, I just ask you regular posters (less than 5 of you)to DG 9 to ask yourselves to write as if you were new to the group or did not speak the psychological jargon - the "in" talk for this thread - and ask if you can be generally understood.

To MaryL: you are obviously a good influence. I will put a bridle on my curmugeonhood, restrict my sarcasm (the last refuge of a small mind) and grin in anticipation of stirring this cosy pot in the future.

To Alan O: I know lots of bright, succesful artists who write carefully and with the reader, not their ego, in mind.

53. "the great communicator"
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 8:16 AM/EST
alan O.

after you call maryl to the head of the class, bobbie, you might want to make an appointment with a good proctologist. then you might see a shrink to deal with your "feelings" about being an "outsider". gee...didn't know you were so sensitive. or did we ratzo? also very impressed about your artist friends - love to meet them. and finally bobbie i forgot to thank you for all your kind help.

55. ahem!
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 10:21 AM/EST
LouisC

Am I the only one upset with the tone of the Bob & alan O. exchanges? Is it too much to ask for a little civility... something sorley lacking in.. say Congress,. for example! ;-)

In other words, lighten up guys!

Just my 2 cents... thanks.

60. bob or rebo & npr sue....
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 12:08 PM/EST
alan O.

oooooooh right you are. my tail is between my legs. robert, i am on my knees with pads borrowed from monica (but for a different reason). i apologize ROBERT!!!! as for bob aka "the communicator", my advice still stands - learn some manners. ratzo do you think robert is friends with npr sue? will he sue me? will i need a lawyer? oh boy! see, if i had submitted this first to "the communicator" none of this would have happen.

62. WHOA!
Wed, Jan 20, 1999 - 4:32 PM/EST
owl kathy

C'mon alan, LIGHTEN UP! Opinions are welcome here without the fear of verbal flagellation by a fellow group member. Bob spoke his mind. Let it go...

Or----is this the very subject we have been adressing in this thread? Socialization? Civility? Whatever you want to call it.

64. How silly
Thu, Jan 21, 1999 - 8:36 PM/EST
BOB

Need I say more?
I take the old saying used by Harry Truman very seriously, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." I thank those who have jumped to the defense of the unpopular Bob, and I consider that evidence that good manners still prevail. I like hot and heavy discussion with civility. If calling attention to method of disposition is considered uncivil on RC, then I am in the wrong venue. Just to bring in a little history, check Cicero's orations and debates (no analogy to mine intended).

65. Every time I think it's safe to go back in the water...
Thu, Jan 21, 1999 - 8:50 PM/EST
RatGirl

Bob, as a matter of fact, maybe you shouldn't say more. Perhaps you and Alan should start sticking out your tongues and waggling them at each other now. Will you please stop, already? Sheesh.

Rat

[Editor's Note: After quite a bit of this all day, the next morning this post appeared...]

66. my hands out....
Fri, Jan 22, 1999 - 7:21 AM/EST
alan O.

i want to say apologize to the group for anything i did that might have upset any of you. while some things were posted by some folks that i might disagree with, i do respect your right to express them. while my response may not have been my finest hour, please understand that rc (as i understand) is meant to be a place to exchange ideas, not to criticize people persoanlly or even how they express their ideas. when this happened out of the blue i couldn't understand why bob would do what he did, grumpy or not. in fact had he offered me constructive advice or help in a friendly way- hey i'd love to improve myself in anyway possible. his comment about my ego - what could i say. i might be passionate and seem self assured about my thoughts, feelings & sense of injustice, and desire to improve the human condition, & yes idealistic but self involved - i don't think so. and if i gave that impression to ANYONE i am so sorrry.

i sense it was more of him projecting. i was also a bit disappointed that some folks seemed to be NOT bothered by this and just wanted it to go away. and i guess i can even accept that. my mistake was the way i responded, hence my response became 'the issue' for some - and the message was lost in the delivery. if being upset & surprised and then expressing my feelings emotionally, i am guitly. for that i accept the consequences. in a jester of good will and for the good of everyone, i offer bob a truce. as the late israeli leader rabin said "enough is enough". in thinking thinks over i decided i must not just preach, but must also practice. bob my hand is out. i thank you all in advance for your understanding & forgiveness.

ps. i want to thank rc, in not just the spirit of what it fosters by appealing to the better in people, but in this case being sucessful! i especially want to publicly thank barry joseph in being, as my people would say, a real "mensch" in appealing to my "good karma" with your "good karma".

73. Peace pipe
Sat, Jan 23, 1999 - 9:15 AM/EST
BOB

alan o - I accept your hand and have tamped down the tobacco in the peace pipe I offer you, ratzo, et al; I'll not light it - let it be a symbolic passing.

Let me apologize to all of you. I shouldn't have jumped in, in the first place, because my days of "parenting" were 50 years ago. I see the results and am not too proud. But then, I cannot burden my conscience too much because I was off being a soldier during the child's earliest years and I feel that this lack of a father's love and guidance had much to do with my disappointment. I admire the man (Buck?) who is focusing on being a father and encourage him.

74. bob, it's water under the bridge...
Sat, Jan 23, 1999 - 10:03 AM/EST
alan O.

ACCEPTED! indulge yourself - take a puff. and YES please jump in. we ALL learn from our sucesses and failures. it is not our intent to pass judgement, but rather to comfort each other in the difficulties and to applaud the victories. i admire you (i don't say this lightly) in being able to speak so openly about not being proud of the results of your parenting. write on! thank you very much! you made my day. alan O.