The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 15, Thread 5.

1. Loss of freedoms
Mon, Feb 1, 1999 - 11:00 PM/EST
churlie

I keep hearing about loss of freedom in this country. However I live such a sheltered life apparently, I don't know what freedoms are being lost. Can someone elucidate this topic for me and I suppose for others as well.

2. loss of freedoms
Tue, Feb 2, 1999 - 10:02 AM/EST
jbm125

Hi Churlie...one of the freedoms we're giving up is privacy. Congress recently passed and Clinton signed a wire tap bill allowing law enf. agents to tap not only drug dealer's phones but also any phone ... public or private that the drug dealer MIGHT use. In other words if you have a cousin who the feds are interested in they might very well be able to legally tap your phone on the off chance your cousin would use it for illegal purposes or to facilitate drug deals. This is a blatant attack on the 4th amendment. You should be secure in your home.

The same bill allows police and their agents to stop your car just because you're driving in a drug neighborhood. No Prob.Cause is needed other than you were in the wrong place at the wrong/right? time. Soooo you're driving down the street...legally....and the police pull you over and want to know 'what are you doing here?'....didn't we fight a war with Britain over this 200 yrs ago?

3. freedoms lost!
Tue, Feb 2, 1999 - 1:33 PM/EST
drcliff

Let's go for another lost freedom- speech. There are numerous instances of FedGov telling citizens what can and can't be said, and how, and where.

The FCC, ostensibly, exists to regulate channels of communication, ensuring the right of our citizens to be heard. That's why they regulate the airwaves, right?

In a word, NO. The FCC seems more interested in serving the whim of large corporate broadcasters. The FCC introduced legislation to Congress a couple years ago (it was passed), making it impossible for any private citizen to legally operate a radio station. By the nature of the regulations, millionaires and large corporations are excluded.

How did this happen? FCC outlawed microbroadcasters, the 'little-guy' radio stations that operate at 1-40 watts. These are folks who spent a few hundred dollars on broadcast gear, and have a range of only a few miles. It's still possible to buy and operate a huge station whose budget is in the millions, but the one-man operations are gone because they are de facto illegal now.

So what? You don't want to be on the radio, so why do you care? So what if some schmo can't play bad music or shoot his mouth off to an audience of 20?

I hope you see the implications. The Federal Government has decided that you are not allowed to communicate via radio, unless you can shell out several hundred thousand dollars for a station. This is a gag order imposed on most of our citizenry. Freedom of speech extends into the media that carry the speech, e.g. freedom of the press. If broadcasting were around at the time of the Constitution's creation, you can bet there would be specific mention of 'Freedom of the Airwaves".

There's a lot more things like this that really get under my skin, but let's work with this one for now.
And no, I've never run a station. It's the principle that bothers me.

3. That was Congress, not the FCC
Tue, Feb 2, 1999 - 3:55 PM/EST
Cichlid

drcliff,

You're partly right, but it was Congress, the legislative branch, that passed the Telecommunications Deregulation Act, which included the stricter standards on low-power broadcasting. The FCC didn't lobby very hard against it, though.

The legal theory behind broadcast regulation is that the airwaves are a public resource, and the FCC (an agency in the Executive branch) should manage that resource in accordance with the laws passed by the Legislative branch. At least that's the theory behind needing a license to broadcast in the first place.

The rules for running a low-power station used to be a lot more relaxed. It was Congress, having been lobbied heavily by the broadcast industry, that tightened up the rules that the FCC is now expected to enforce.

And there's a big technical distinction between "speaking" and "broadcasting". Since I have an amateur radio license, I can "speak" to anybody else with a license anywhere in the world. What I can't do is broadcast to the public - unless I obtain a very expensive high-power broadcast license or one of the few remaining low-power licenses.

Another thing that Congress did in the Telecommunications Deregulation Act was to place an emphasis on digital television. Many of the new digital television channels were created by taking away existing low-power television licenses.

On the other hand, there's this new communication medium that hasn't been very regulated up to now - the Internet! Feel free to post your ideas for all the world to read, right here on Reality Check!

4. Right On!
Tue, Feb 2, 1999 - 10:42 PM/EST
ArtP2

jbm125:
There is a problem here: if we live in a rat-warren society all our personal options will (must be!) limited. This is not the way that we, as human beings, have evolved, so there is a huge disconnect.
We could all "go out West, young man" and have total personal freedom. But, since I live in Los Angeles, I can guarantee you that this option, if it ever really existed, is not here anymore.
We could all arm ourselves with the latest personal weapons, a few anti-tank and anti-missile armaments, and declare that "no one treads on me!" ...but this seems to be counter-productive if we want to live in an enclusive society.
We could all give up our Constitutionally-guaranteed rights for the "greater good"... I have a bit of trouble with that.
The old paradigms don't work. What was reasonable and appropriate 100 or 200 years ago just don't apply to our present society/situation. So now is the perfect time, especially because of the impeachment turmoil over a totally trivial offense, for all of us, as a cohesive nation, to come together and say:
"This is how we want to order our lives and society."
A Constitutional Convention?
...ArtP2

7. I'm not ceding my rights
Wed, Feb 3, 1999 - 11:13 AM/EST
jbm125

ArtP2: I'm not ready to give up any of my constitutional rights. I agree we live in a 'rat warren' society but that does not mean I have to give in to the rats. The option to 'go west' and retain our personal freedoms still exists...it's just a matter of money and convenience. I live in the RURAL Pocono Mts. of PA. My nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away. I answer the door after dark with a gun in my hand. I hunt for venison meat for the winter from my backyard. My dogs run loose on my property. I realize not everyone can do this but everyone can try.

Giving up my rights on a matter as small as wiretaps is leading to a 'slippery slope' of having rights taken from me. This I will not abide. To say that this is the time to come together and say "This is how we want to order our lives and society" "A Constitutional Convention"???? What are you talking about. Do you want to give up the constitutional protections you now enjoy.

Do you favor amending the 2nd or 4th article in the Bill of Rights? Would you repeal the 14th so that we can all have slaves? The 1st amendment protects freedom of speech, religion et al,the 2nd gives us the right to carry arms...w/out the 2nd none of the others would be enforcable by the people. Now is the time in our history to reinforce all our const. rights not abridge them. Respectfully.....Jack (jbm125)

8. You go JBM!
Wed, Feb 3, 1999 - 7:39 PM/EST
trolltime

I must agree with JBM on the new frontier
our government is taking on when it comes
to invasion of our privacy. What I feel
most helpless about, is the feeling of
resentment I have for being forced to hand
over my tax dollars, and really having not
anything to say about what gets done with
it. I know how the system works, but it
seems to me in this day and age of computers
and internet use. I don't see why we couldn't
have something like Registered voter Kiosks in
every grocery store, mall and post offices.
Where, democracy would decide who gets what
slice of the pie, and who gets ousted out
of office. I truly believe this form of
voting is a viable means of getting what
the people want. Its gotta be faster than
all the debating, pork barreling, and under
the table handshaking going on.

9. Timeless
Wed, Feb 3, 1999 - 7:40 PM/EST
Tokin2

Artp2
The individual freedoms and rights refered to in our Constitution are timeless and inalienable,
Notice I said refered, not given of granted,
our rights are given to us by a higher power. the purpose of our Constitution is to limit the scope of government and it's ability to intrude on the individual rights and freedoms of the citizens.
These rights and freedoms were valid two thousand years ago and will be valid two thousand years in the future. and I for one could not envision a "Greater Good" that would be worth giving up our Individual freedoms and rights.

10. freedoms...shuddder
Thu, Feb 4, 1999 - /EST
churlie

I am glad i asked the question about loss of freedoms -- you can see in the responses how I could remain unaware -- or keep forgettng -- how freedoms erode -- we dont have the freedom for a constitutional convention -- I am no longer sure the following is true -- maybe just a story-- but a senator from Illinois -- dirksen -- wanted such a convention and others pointed out that we would never again write the bill of rights that we already have -- that the spirit isnt there -- and so we dont dare open that can of worms. thank all of you for making it so clear that yes we do lose freedoms as situations and therefore laws change.

11. Constitutional Rights
Thu, Feb 4, 1999 - /EST
ArtP2

It looks like I might have found Pandora's Box! OK, let's see if we can make sense of all of this....

jbm125: How I envy you! I live in a very large urban area, where someone who has 10,000 square feet of land is considered to be land-wealthy. And firing weapons at anything when your neighbor is only 20 feet away is totally unacceptable! I don't care what is theoretically guaranteed as our "rights"... If the guy next door starts shooting into my backyard, he's going to go to jail! This is what I was talking about earlier: our society has changed in some very fundamental ways from what is was 200+ years ago, and our basic laws should change to reflect our present situation.
I'm running out of space... But I LOVE the way you guys make me think!
...ArtP2

13. Ready, aim, fire!
Thu, Feb 4, 1999 - 11:30 AM/EST
jbm125

Hi Churlie et al: One of the benefits of living in the country is that your neighbor is not 20' away when you decide to shoot a gun.
Keep in mind that my targets are generally dead
trees so I'm not endangering anything that isn't already dead. My advice to anyone who feels they are in a 'rat warren' environment is to move.
Land in 'really' rural areas is relatively cheap
if you're willing to drive 30 or 40 minutes to a mall, movie theater, work etc. The benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.
Contrary to your opinion our circumstances have not changed that much in 200yrs. In 1799 Boston or New York you would be a social pariah if you were shooting a gun 20 feet ffrom your neighbor. In fact he'd probably drag out his blunderbuss to stop you. In 1999 what you have to do is go to Idaho, PA, OH or another state where you can find 30 or 40 acres to be your buffer zone and allow you to do what you want when you want w/out disturbing your neighbors. At my place the men's room is the 3rd tree from the driveway....the woman's lav. is the 5th tree. ttyl...
Jack

14. Taxes
Thu, Feb 4, 1999 - 11:47 AM/EST
jbm125

Trolltime: My feelings on taxes are....I'm happy to pay them. To be able to pay a few thousand dollars to live in the US is a remarkable bargain.
I don't worry about overpaying cuz I don't think that's possible. To have the benefits of Social Security, the ACLU, the NRA,the CONSTITUTION and Bill of Rights and a Walmart or Penney's within driving distance(also the Interstate Hiway system)
and a free lawyer(Miranda) if you screw up is well worth whatever levy the gov't. imposes, Patriot missiles, nuclear subs etc. have no impact on my life so I kind of ignore it. My input on forign policy is expressed thru the email I send my congressman and senators...other than that all I could do is run for office. Thanks but no thanks.
The idea of a kiosk of some sort for voters to register their opinion is nuts. We live in a Representative democracy. We vote for someone who we hope will carry out our values but if not we have to rely on their honor and integrity and the fact they might be privy to more info than we have. I hope my congressperson votes the way I would but I trust him or her to vote for what's best for the country. ttyl

18. Freedom
Thu, Feb 4, 1999 - 8:28 PM/EST
MAYORBOB2

I really can't say that we have lost any of the basic freedoms over the past 200 years...if anything we have gained freedom in very tangible ways. If you think about how society was organized back then, reflect upon slavery, women and children as chattel, debtors prisons, the very real supremacy of white maledom and the inferiority of virtually everyone else, I would say we have come a very long way and gathered to ourselves substantial freedoms.

Think about what being born in the lower class meant back then...virtually a life sentence of need, neglect, ignorance, and servitude to others. Now we have a society which affords us the ability to raise ourselves above our original station in life...which recognizes the value and worth of people of color, women, children...which rewards hard work and ingenuity. We even have a society which protects our rights to arm and protect ourselves and complain about how bad "our kind" has it compared to "those over there".

To me, the wonderful thing about America is that a person has the ability to reinvent themselves, not just once, but several times over, if they wish. How many people have you known who have been able to begin second careers later in life?

This is not to say that this is a perfect society, one in which all the above applies to 100%...but, on the whole, this is truer here than it is anywhere else in the World or at anytime in history. I am distressed by the plight of the hungry and the homeless, the mentally ill, the dispossessed of the World in whatever dunghole they inhabit...and I give my time to the local charities I support and my portion of my income to the national and world charities I support.

I believe that if we could all just get past the finger pointing and defensiveness that characterizes so much of our national discourse, we could move mountains. We need to stop speaking and acting as whites, blacks, Latinos, Asians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, feminists, men, and women and begin speaking and acting as members of the human race. We need to recognize that there are some things that will work in this world and put our energies into them...and recognize that there are some things that are broken in this world and fix the fixable and dispose of the unfixable.

Whew, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong (but am probably not).