The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 15, Thread 16.

1. Bill Clinton Joins Promise Keepers
Sat, Feb 6, 1999 - 1:02 PM/EST
P.J.

Here's an idea I'd like to see discussed. Given the deep feelings people have about whether the President is or isn't repentent or has or hasn't been punished enough I wonder if he joined Promise Keepers that would satisfy those who feel the need for justice. Any thoughts?

2. The promise keepers, feh
Sat, Feb 6, 1999 - 1:17 PM/EST
bec

First of all, to Clinton's enemies, nothing he could do would satisfy their need, not for justice, but destruction.

Second, the Promise Keepers are too frightenting to even consider as a vialble option. They remind me of some neo-fascist organization with their quasi-religous psuedo mail bonding christian rituals. Of course, that also describes many of Clinton's enemies, so perhaps you have a point.

Personally I'd like the Promise Keepers to promise to quietly go into the dark from which they've come.

( I will admit that there are plenty of men that could use a dose of the 'old time religon' the PKs espouse. But then they need to be de-programmed. Maybe microsoft should do it? That way it would look good but not quite work the way it's advertised?)

3. peers
Sun, Feb 7, 1999 - /EST
churlie

It is bad enough we call the senate procedure a 'trial' although the president has no peers, the senators cannot be jurors of impartiality; we now discuss cruel and unusual punishment

5. Who do you think Promise Keepers are?
Mon, Feb 8, 1999 - 1:16 PM/EST
Christian

Although I haven't been to a stadium event I have gone through a Promise Keeper Bible Study with my Bible Group (which I might say included both men and women including my wife.) I don't understand the animosity towards a group of people devoted to strengthening the family and the people in contact with PKs through their commitment to living a morally and spiritually upright life. HEY, THAT IS HARD TO DO! So they get together and form a support group of people committed to the same purpose. This is what everyone needs to do. Find a group of people willing to keep us honest about the decisions we make in the world around us.

Check out the following statement of faith and seven promises of a Promise Keeper. We could all lead a more morally justifiable life with a support group like the PKs.

PROMISE KEEPERS STATEMENT OF FAITH

1.We believe there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2.We believe that the Bible is God's written revelation to man, and that it is verbally inspired,authoritative, and without error in the original manuscripts.
3.We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless life, miracles, death on the cross to provide for our redemption, bodily resurrection, and ascension into heaven, present ministry of intercession for us, and His return to earth in power and glory.
4.We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, that He performs the miracle of the new birth in unbelievers and indwells believers, enabling them to live godly lives.
5.We believe that man was created in the image of God, but because of sin, was alienated from God. Only through faith, trusting in Christ alone for salvation which was made possible by His death and resurrection, can that alienation be removed.

THE SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER
1.A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit.
2.A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.
3.A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual purity.
4.A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical values.
5.A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources.
6.A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
7.A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew 28:19-20 .

6. That's why I asked
Mon, Feb 8, 1999 - 5:01 PM/EST
P.J.

Christian, it is because I understand these things about PK that I wondered if those who find his behavior as less than repentant would view him more favorably if he joined that group in particular. This question doesn't ask if he should be convicted, censured or removed. This thread asks what would he need to do to be forgiven by those who are most offended and angry at what they accuse him of doing. I use the Promise Keepers ideas on what is needed to live a moral and truly righteous life because they are clearly defined and regarded highly by those most in opposition to the President.

7. Personal Morality?
Tue, Feb 9, 1999 - /EST
ArtP2

Christian:
The PK Promises and Statement of Faith are great. Maybe if more people signed up for something like that, we really would have a better society.
But I have a great deal of trouble trying to understand how an individual's personal committment should be used as a basis for judging ANYONE else! No one gave anyone else the right to judge my morality, and if they assert that "right", I will resist with all the force I can.
That is the scary thing about the Promise Keepers and any other group that pretends to know that they have the truth and everyone else is not only misguided but must be "saved".
...ArtP2

8. And then there are those of other faiths . . .
Tue, Feb 9, 1999 - 2:08 PM/EST
Cichlid

Christian,

And what would the Promise Keepers prescribe for those of us who do not accept their faith or that their promises are not the best basis for modern society? What of those who do not believe in the Trinity? What of those who do not accept the authority or infallibility of the Bible? Or who believe it to be allegorical, rather than literal?

How would you respond to those of us who are committed to pursuing vital relationships regardless of whether they are with men or women? Or whose families are not built on the Biblical model (or whose families are built on some of the Biblical examples that are less accepted these days)? Or who disagree with many Biblical values (at least as they are interpreted today)?

I have a lot of respect for many of the objectives of the Promise Keepers. You are quite right, living a morally and spiritually upright life has always been hard, and still is. I, too, struggle to live my life in a moral, honorable, upright way - but it's certainly NOT in keeping with the beliefs of the Promise Keepers!

What I worry about is how will the Promise Keepers impact our society? Will be become more or less tolerant of other beliefs? Are the Promise Keepers concerned with their own lives, or are they going to pose a militant threat to those of us with different beliefs? Or lives that are not in line with their promises? Will I be forced to bend to THEIR concept of society and religion as a result of the "Great Commission"?

9. I guess you're outta the club
Tue, Feb 9, 1999 - 8:44 PM/EST
MAYORBOB2

Cichlid. It's kinda like, you learn the double secret handshake or they won't let you in the clubhouse.

I must confess, I know nothing about the PK, so for that reason I am not going to offer an opinion on them. But from the extensive post that Christian placed in this thread, it seems to me that if you remove references to the Bible, God, and Church (and I realize that kinda guts the whole thing) you might be able to rephrase them so that they become a moral credo for atheists to observe.

The precepts of the Nation of Islam (no, I'm not Black and not a Muslim) refer to self-sufficience, practicing self control, performing community service, helping your fellow brother and sister to rise above ignorance, poverty, and drugs. There's just that niggling, (also of Norse derivation, meaning irritating) little thing about Whites being devils.

I think ArtP2 would go along with some of the precepts and goals, but not necessarily the judgemental aspects of it.

10. Nothing to fear
Wed, Feb 10, 1999 - 2:20 AM/EST
allamerican

I am truly amazed at how athiests and liberals are fearful of the Promise Keepers. They are a completely non-threatening, non-judgemental, group of men who have chosen to commit themselves to God and practice family values as they are written in the bible. This means that they will honor their wives and support their children. They believe in prayer and obeying the 10 Commandments. If there is something wrong with this please tell me what it is. There is nothing in their credo about condemning others who choose not to join them. (I know, I read their literature). There is nothing about hoarding firearms and destroying non-believers.

The Promise Keepers credo is one that I wish could be adopted by all men. Instead of abandoning or abusing their wives and children, a home with love and faith in God would be created. Show me the threat in that. Poverty pimps like Jesse Jackson and John Conyers should be spreading this message to their followers. It sure wouldn't hurt.

12. To Answer Your Question..
Thu, Feb 11, 1999 - 11:55 PM/EST
Joycie

P. J.
You asked if it would satisfy our need for justice if BC joined Promise Keepers. Not a chance. First of all, it would take a long time to believe in his motive for being there. He does like to become all things to all people. Second, it would have nothing to do with the justice he deserves as a law breaker.

If he had perjured or obstructed because he was in a situation where he had to choose the lesser of two evils for some noble deed for the country I could cut him some slack. But that's not the case. The man is full of corruption and shameless to boot. Sincere remorse would be a starting place. But he would sure have a lot to apologize for. The position he put his secretary in to hide the affair. Humiliating his wife and daughter by what they've had to endure through the whole process. All the *crap* our kids have had to learn about cheap sex. The list could fill a page - and that's before we talk about the illegal stuff.

Truthfully, the only thing that would satisfy my sense of justice would be sincere remorse AND removal from office. Ideally I would like to see him put through a *real* trial. Call me harsh, but "to whom much is given, much is required" and he didn't blow this by accident. He chose it.

13. Judgement
Fri, Feb 12, 1999 - /EST
ArtP2

Joycie...
I was brought up with the idea someone who would judge another person agrees to shoulder a huge responsibility. Among other things, you have to agree to ignore the Biblical injunction to "judge not, less you be judged" and Christ's statement, "...you who have no sin, cast the first stone."

Clinton said he was wrong. Why not just accept that and get on with it? Neither you nor I have "walked in his moccasins".
...ArtP2

14. To ArtP2
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 10:00 AM/EST
Joycie

I suppose then, that we should let anyone out of prison who says "I'm sorry". And do away with the court system because people should not be accountable for their actions. You've used your quotes from scripture of out context. Certianly God is forgiving, but offenders obtain that forgiveness by way of repentance, - and it is readily available - when sought. Sometimes though, forgiveness does not negate consequences and I could give you numerous examples if you are interested.

P.J. asked what would satisfy my sense of justice and I told her. I would be willing to forgive if I believed he was sincere, but he's so good at lying, it's hard to tell. That doesn't me I don't think he should not be held accountable.

You probably won't believe this, but even though I think it would have been the right thing to remove him from office, it would have caused me a great deal of pain. Doing the right thing isn't always pleasureable, sometimes it's heartbreaking.

Surely we will all move on, but I will always feel that an injustice was suffered.
Tell me which is more egregious, a crime against the "state", or a crime against a citizen of the state?