The following exchange is from Dialogue Group 7, Thread 62.

24. operabuff
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 1:01 PM/EST
openminded

The examples I used in my previous posting were careless. I threw them out there wrecklessly, without giving serious thought. I am quite sure there is not anything I could say to you on this particular subject that you couldn't dispute or disprove. I realize my postings fall well below everyone else's on the intellect scale as it has so often been defined in this forum. I suppose this could explain why my postings are so often unresponded to, why I often feel 'unworthy' in partaking in certain threads and 'group' discussions. I can't 'out debate' you, I wouldn't even want to try. What I can do is share the love I have recieved in faith in the Lord. God indeeds exists, he needs no defense. He has given us the gift of love without asking for anything in return. He did'nt ask for proof of our love when sacrificing his only begotten son to behold us the wonderful gift of ever lasting love and life. God extends these gifts to all, believers and non-believers If you choose not to openly accept that love, then that is your right .I just want you to know that God is, has and will always be there for you if you ever feel the need to call upon him. Faith...take it or leave it but God is always there. That is simply undisputable.
Proof? I guess I could present you with documents, history, books, websites ect. that would give you more of a stimulating arguement that what I could do alone. I could quote the Book of Revelations, point out the events that were predicted long ago and how they coincide with our society today and current events. I won't do that for I'm sure you could 'out research me .I am simply going to say that God lives, he lives in my heart. That is all the proof I need.

25. openminded
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 1:47 PM/EST
hfinn

No one is questioning the scope of your intellect. The question at issue is Does God Exist? People like me and operabuff say no, we say that because we see no evidence for it. This has nothing to do with feelings or wishes. You do not succeed in your argument by saying, in a sincerely heartfelt manner,t hat it is indisputably true that God exists.T hat is as meaningful as if I were to insist that ghosts exist because I sense their presence or others do.

I think that what you and AGZ share is a different threshold of acceptance.I require a tiny bit of actual emperical objective fact to win me over. You ,I suggest,are more persuaded by 'spiritual senses' or feelings and do not require scientific proof. That's a difference not reconciable by argument.

But even putting proof aside ,it stikes people like me that the Biblical 'God' is silly, cruel, confused, short-tempered, vengeful, stupid, powerful, caring, bigoted, impatient, imperious--in short a Very human tyrant of limited capabilities ...But other than creating havoc--not very God-like .I say this not to tweak believers but because it is exactly how this being is depicted in the stories of the bible. We see things in very different ways and why that is ...is a whole other topic.

26. Openminded
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 3:19 PM/EST
operabuff

You just gave the only cogent and meaningful reason for believing in a god: because you have faith. Your faith is admirable and wonderful! Please, don't ever think that I would put you down because of it. My point has always been that belief in a god, or gods, or the god, must stem from faith, from a feeling that comes from within, from the heart, if you will. Such a belief cannot, and should not, come from rational considerations. If you try to rationalize or explain faith, I think you diminish its beauty and power. I don't have faith, I need to see things rationally. Short of god striking me with lightening if I dare her to, I cannot believe. My impatience is with people who try to offer up rational arguments for the existence of god. To do so is futile and unnecessary. Either one believes, as you do, or one doesn't, as I don't. Never apologize for your faith, and I will never apologize for my lack of faith. You and I simply approach the world differently.

I am sorry if my disputatiousness has put you off. I cannot resist a good, stimulating debate. I argue not from anger (my friends and colleagues call me a marshmallow because I am so mellow, and easy to get along with, believe it or not) but from a love of exchanging ideas. I truly hope I did not give offense to you, or anyone else. I save my anger for those who try to force their faith on me (like the Christian coalition, which is trying to dictate government policy), or who use faith to enrich themselves, or who claim that my family and I cannot be good or moral people because of our atheism.

27. You said it yourselves
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 4:55 PM/EST
Claudia

openminded, your post eloquently states your faith which, like mine, is simply the knowledge that God does exist. We don't BELIEVE He exists, we KNOW he does. I've never found you to be less intelligent that anyone here. You're correct, you can't "out debate" operabuff, with whom I agree on most things. But that doesn't apply to this thread.

Why do you believe or not believe in God? is the thread of these posts. Most of us have stated why we do believe in Him. I don't believe any of us have attempted to convert nonbelievers or denigrate them. Operabuff, I'm disappointed in you for once. You state your reasons for not believing, which I accept and value. But you need not attempt to convince us of the absurdity of our faith by citing stupid examples of obviously foolish people who interpret their faith in meaningless ways.

You said it yourself, operabuff, "Our not knowing the answer now does not mean we can never know it. If we simply shrug our shoulders and say that, since we don't know the answers, god must have done it, then we stop looking for answers."

Conversely, if you simply shrug your shoulders and say that, since you don't know the answers (as you say in being unable to prove or disprove God's existence), then you stop looking for answers! Can you accept that some of us do know the answer and you do not? Does your not knowing the answer mean that you can never know the answer? Please note, I am not attempting to convince you to believe in God. I am not giving you reasons why you or anyone should believe in God. If you follow your own reasoning, your intelligent, inquisitive mind should continue to look for an answer which you admittedly do not know.

To all of you, this has been the most interesting thread for me. All of your postings have revealed a personal side which makes me feel closer to you. I have visited the website set up by markearnest for our Group 7 and perhaps we could occasionally keep in touch there if anyone is interested.

29. Claudia
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 8:19 PM/EST
operabuff

I need evidence, observable phenomena, in order to believe. I keep an open mind on the existence of god. After all, a negative cannot be proven. However, nothing I have observed, either directly or indirectly, seems to confirm or even suggest the existence of a god. I have, on the other hand, amassed plenty of data which would lead me to believe that god is simply a construct of the human mind, to satisfy human needs.

Until the existence of a god can be demonstrated to my satisfaction, I will believe only what the evidence shows me. Strictly speaking, I am more agnostic than atheist, not in the sense that I have doubts about god's existence, but in the sense that in this area, as in science, no knowledge is absolute. As I see it, the existence of god can neither be proven nor disproven, but the preponderance, indeed all of the evidence, points to nonexistence. Perhaps someday there will be evidence which proves me wrong, but until there is,

I cannot "know" of god's existence, and I cannot believe in god's existence. I am saying this apart from all the cruel uses humankind has made of religion. In this, as in other things, I remain a skeptic. Someone saying to me that he or she knows god exists because he or she knows god exists is not the evidence which will change my mind. As a skeptic, I am open to new evidence, new data. But, as a skeptic, I will not accept absolute and inviolable truth, which is what religion offers us.

30. Operabuff
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 11:05 PM/EST
AGZ

No one has to, or can, convince you that God is real that is something you must do, if you want to, on your own. I did not write that I believe in God just to "hedge my bet", I stated that if I am wrong I would rather be wrong believing in Him or Her.