Kosovo (36 posts)
23. You're not answering the question.
Sun, Feb 14, 1999 - 6:28 PM/EST
JimP
24. Part 2.
Sun, Feb 14, 1999 - 6:36 PM/EST
JimP
I hit the tab button twice, and it posted the thread, rather than moving to the message box. Sorry.
The question was Why. What is the difference between Kosovao and East Timur?
It isn't a matter of weight, or at least is not simply or only a matter of weight. Do we feel a responsibility to stop people from killing others in Kosovo, and not in East Timur, because Kosovans are caucasian, and East Timurans are not? Does Kosovo have resources that we need, and East Timur not?
Why are the UN and the US not as involved in mandating that the Indonesians settle their dispute as they are in Kosovo? Why aren't there forced settlement talks going on in, for instance, Tokyo or Manila, as those outside of Paris? What is the difference?
And the answer is...???
25. Familiarity"
Mon, Feb 15, 1999 - 11:51 AM/EST
McRostie
I think Jim, that if roughly 75% of our population came from SE Asia, our interests would be reversed. That's one explanation. A second, and it seems quite obvious to me, is that we have had one World War start in the Kosovo region with another not too far away in Austria and Cseckoslovakia.
Past that, on a moral basis and I think that is the basis on which you ask your question, there is no difference. People are people, wherever thay live, or die. Several of us have expressed the idea that the "moral posture" of the US is somewhat unsteady when it comes to unbiased assistance to various leaders/countries in the world.
Since the days of the Marshall Plan, we have succumbed to "self interest" as our motivator. And sadly enough, even then it was more than tangentially involved in our aid decisions. Keep asking your questions. Maybe they'll move a few people to proper action.
Regards, McRostie
26. understanding
Mon, Feb 15, 1999 - 1:36 PM/EST
eireann
I think you answered your own question, Jim, McRostie just expanded on it a bit. Europeans (even - gasp! - the Muslim ones) are easier to understand than people way way off in East Timor. I was going to bring that up when we were talking earlier in this thread about Africa but left it out for brevity's sake (What's that, you say? Eireann, brevity? Yes, indeed. Sometimes.) :)
We know Europeans - we know where they live, what they look like, what types of languages they speak, what religions they practice - hell, most Americans probably even know a European! Or we at least know that we have a great deal of complex relationships - military ones - with Europeans. Just like we have complex relationships - economic ones - with people in the Middle East. But Africa? Timor? Hmm. Less readily apparent. They must not be that important. And if they're not important to us, why should we get involved in their "internal" struggles? We're probably not wanted there anyway. It must be a conflict that's been going on for hundreds of years, and we couldn't possibly understand it nor be of any help. They just need to fight it out amongst themselves. (Oh, why did Clinton get involved in the most recent peace talks in Northern Ireland, you ask? Hasn't that conflict been going on for hundreds of years too, you ask? Well, yes. But goodness gracious, the Irish are white! Why, apart from the silly accent, you'd easily mistake them for Americans! And not only that, but they're Christian! Of course we should help them out!) To get back to the subject, though, do you know what strategic importance East Timor has for us? No? But you certainly know the strategic importance of, say - Iraq, right? Well then, there's your answer.
(PS- The sarcasm in the above is only meant to be directed at the US government.)
-Eireann
27. Sarcasm befits you.
Mon, Feb 15, 1999 - 6:05 PM/EST
JimP
I can see that you are right, but I don't have to like it. I do, though, have an idea about why Timur is, or should be, important to us.
Indonesia is militarily a keystone in that portion of the world. It stretches for over a thousand miles, and can control access to many strategic locations. In addition, they are beginning to discover that there is oil there.
Economically, it is one of the more populous nations, and quite underdeveloped. The market for our goods there is going to be very important.
So, in many ways there are very good reasons for us to be concerned about their internal relations. For some reason we are not. Oh, I suppose that there are good reasons that we are not. I can even think of a few. One, we don't have an organization similar to NATO, or the EU, that can concentrate the effort. ASEAN isn't very active. Two, in a very real way, we cannot participate in more than one major conflict at a time. Three, politically there are too many balancing acts necessary in that part of the world - North and South Korea and China being examples. Four, the large, stable nations - Australia and Japan, don't seem overly concerned, and aren't pumping the US to contribute as is the EU.
I guess what bothers me most is that people are dying. In Kosove they are white, In Timur they are brown. I know that there are individuals in high places that care, or at least I am pretty sure that there are. But for many reasons, some enumerated above, the impression is that the US is only reacting in Europe, where the haritage is caucasian, or in the mid-east, where the economics is oil. The image we portray is that these are the primary reasons, heritage and oil, that cause us to act. There is much more to it in Timur, ut they are more hidden, and thereforewe do not get the full picture.
I feel guilty that I don't know more, but at the same time, I cannot, and should not have to, be aware of each and every action my nation takes. That's why we have elected representatives. That's why we have an immense beauracracy established around the world.
That beauracracy produced 'The Ugly American", but it also provided the structure and support that has allowed both Europe and Japan to become economic giants. There is a balance there somewhere. We need to re-find it.
Regards,
Jim
28. just a quick p.s.
Mon, Feb 15, 1999 - 7:42 PM/EST
eireann
"i can see that you're right, but i don't have to like it." i don't like it either. yet i'm applying to grad schools so i can spend the rest of my life studying it. sigh.
anyway, my P.S. is this: jim just wrote that japan and australia don't seem to be too worried about the situation in east timor. i actually just read an article today at lunch (after my post) that australia's foreign minister has "conceded" that timor should eventually be given the chance for a refendum on independence, or at least autonomy. hmm. change in policy. interesting. didn't seem to quelch the violence, though.
signing off 'til tomorrow,
-eireann
29. Solutions for everybody?
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 10:07 AM/EST
McRostie
No, we don't have them ... even for our own problems to say nothing of those in all parts of the world. Let's face it, the reason we don't intervene, assist, exercise more diplomatic efforts, etc. etc. in Timur or Africa is that we do not have the political will. While many will say we have the moral obligation to do so, many more of us will argue that we have no such duty.
For the past now nearly 18 years, since the early eighties, we have been cutting our spending on the State Depatment and Foreign Aid (except the military variety). And today, Impeachment no longer being on the front burner, what is our Republican leadership talking about? They're back to a 10% tax cut for everybody as their primary objective. When the political majority in Congress has eyes only for the tax cut, the chances of our doing much to help the rest of the world resolve its problems are remote at best.
Best we worry about resolving our internal problems.
Regards, McRostie
30. Solutions?
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 2:58 PM/EST
JimP
In a very real sense, I am not looking for a solution, or ever plural solutions. I realize that they come about incrementally, over time.
What I am looking for is a national awareness of the myriad ways our nation addresses the needs of those persons and nations less fortunate than ourselves. I am looking for an internal, self audit that will place issues such as these before us all.
I am looking for a cohesion that does not exist today. Cohesion does not imply, to me at least, a monolithic, single perspective on the problems throughout. I don't foresee, want, or ever hope to have a single perspective. Cohesion is not synonymous with congruence.
I am looking for an awareness of who we are, personally, cummunity, and national, in our relations with others. I am looking for us to become aware of how our individual consciousness and, it seems mostly, unconsciousness, through which we act.
When we have these, regardless of religion, color, creed, etc., we may have the political will to act in ways that meet the needs of us all. Us all, in this context, is not the citizens of the US, or of those nations that like us, have something we need, or look like us. It is US, all of us, for we are one.
And now, I have to climb out of the clouds, and go to a meeting to decide how best to present a set of information to folk across the state.
Regards,
Jim
31. Yeltsin
Thu, Feb 18, 1999 - 11:34 AM/EST
JimP
Does anyone know how seriously NATO, the EU, or the US should be taking Yeltsin's statement that "We will not allow Kosovo to be touched"?
Is it possible that the Balkans will become a face saving, or politically saving measure for Yeltsin to show that Russia remains a world power?
These are questions that I do not see addressed in the news, though they may be in a specialized journal or magazine. From that, I ask whether any of you know about a news source that will give me more information than the normal TV, radio, and newspapers?
Regards, Jim
32. Yeltsin
Thu, Feb 18, 1999 - 11:57 AM/EST
JimP
Does anyone know how seriously NATO, the EU, or the US should be taking Yeltsin's statement that "We will not allow Kosovo to be touched"?
Is it possible that the Balkans will become a face saving, or politically saving measure for Yeltsin to show that Russia remains a world power?
These are questions that I do not see addressed in the news, though they may be in a specialized journal or magazine. From that, I ask whether any of you know about a news source that will give me more information than the normal TV, radio, and newspapers?
Regards, Jim
33. Yeltsin?
Fri, Feb 19, 1999 - 10:41 AM/EST
McRostie
I suspect Jim, that he is only attempting to reinforce the idea of Russia being a world power.
Nevertheless, as discussed in earlier posts, they may be repidly getting into the position where they have "nothing to lose" and under those circumstances, I suppose we had better listen closely to what they say. It sould also be mentioned, I guess, that the problem may not be that Yeltsin is attempting to promote Russian influence, it may be that he is attempting to give evidence of his personal strength. In some ways, that is an even more dangerous situation.
Let's hope, with the situation apparently coming to a head today or tomorrow, that we see a last-minute resolution of the problems as has happened in the past.
Regards, McRostie
34. I hope you're right.
Fri, Feb 19, 1999 - 10:15 PM/EST
JimP
But, I don't think it is going to happen. Today's news wasn't promising. Milosovic wouldn't even see the ambassador.
You know McRostie, it is at times like this that I really feel the most emotionally deflated. I don't have the energy to even think logically about the situation. There is really nothing that I, or we, could do that would make a bit of difference. NATo has made up its collective mind. Milosovic has set his feet in stone. Yeltsin may be posturing, or he may need a distraction for his own political survival, and actually do something should NATO begin bombing. There just doesn't seem to be a workable solution. Still, there is time, and with time, hope.
Regards,
Jim
35. The only thing to do is
Sat, Feb 20, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST
McRostie
HOPE!
Regards, McRostie
36. I am heartened!
Sat, Feb 20, 1999 - 9:06 PM/EST
JimP
I've been out of touch all today, not even having the radio on. This evening at 6:15 I turned on a few minutes of news just to see what has happened here. The bottom line is nothing, though there seems to be some movement. We are not bombing, YET. As you say, McRostie, there is HOPE.
Thanks,
Jim
