Constitutional evolution (58 posts)

45. Our problems?
Thu, Feb 11, 1999 - 8:12 PM/EST
McRostie

Jim, I AGREE. tHE PROBLEMS OF THE WORLD ARE OUR PROB LEMS. But, I do think it important that we recognize that we (you and I) are not able by ourselves to do much about them. That was the sense in which I said they are not yours.

That doesn't mean that we should not recognize the problems for being what they are. Big ones. Real Big. But they are the world's problems, and they must be solved by all the world. All you and I can do is, as I've said before, set an example for how we think the world should conduct itself. I hope I've done that, and I' m quite certain you have. You have done, and are doing, all you can. Be satisfied with that.

Regards, McRostie

46. Right, with another but..
Thu, Feb 11, 1999 - 10:30 PM/EST
JimP

Cultures, societies, and nations change only as fast as the individuals that comprise them do. This is one instance in which I see the change bubbling from deep within us all. I think forums such as this one are clear evidence that people are beginning to stir. I think that people all over the world are beginning to see themselves as connected; to one another, and to the environment.

The problems are big, and they are world wide. However, the way to eat this elephant is one bite at a time. I want to be involved in changing myself so that I am a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

Regards,

Jim

47. To JimP in love and honour
Sat, Feb 13, 1999 - 6:46 AM/EST
FelixG

JimP: I feel very guilty when I read some of your posts above.

If RealityCheck has done one thing, it has brought me into communication with you - and, despite your doubts, I think that communication does more than anything else to resolve problems.

You say the state of the world is brought about by many JimPs .... so it is, and by many FelixGs and many Macrosties and ... BUT thos many individual people are also our hope and salvation if they can be made to talk and, gradually, to understand each other. That's what we've been doing her, and I for one am grateful for the oportunity to meet you.

Please don't fel I've attacked you or your position - I never meant to. We have both, perhaps, seen in a new way that others have a different take on what we know from our own windows; neither of us will ever make quite the same asumptions again. That is *good* thing, not to be regretted.

Felix

48. Thanks, Felix
Sun, Feb 14, 1999 - 6:36 PM/EST
JimP

49. Did it again
Sun, Feb 14, 1999 - 6:48 PM/EST
JimP

Thanks, Felix. I am basically an optimist, and think that I see the best in an individual. At times though, I seem to get into a rut and don't see any progress at all. A rut is, after all, a grave without ends.

Communication is one part of a solution. There are others, of course. No solution comes from government, or business, or any where else other than the individual.

An individual can make a tremendous difference. Witness Rosa Parks, or at the other end, the guy who shot Martin Luther King. (memory's going - I cannot think of his name, he recently died)

Any person who sets himself up to make a positive difference is accused of being a "do-gooder." I guess that, in the final analysis, I'd like my memorial service to include the words "do good."

Enough! This forum is not about me. It is larger than any one of us. The communication we estabglish will enable the ripples of our individual expressions to flow outwards, and possibly be more than we will ever realize.

Regards,

Jim

Regartd

50. Individuals and difference
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 5:26 AM/EST
FelixG

I agree with much of what macrostie says - but ultimately I agree with JimP's last (even though he and I differ in so many other ways). While macrostie is right that an individual cannot do much to change the world, it is also true that nothing in the world will change if the individual stops doing her/his best to achieve the impossible. History is the sum total of individual actions.

51. Individual Actions?
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 10:16 AM/EST
McRostie

I agree Felix G, history is the sum total of individual actions. But I still maintain that as individuals, the best we can hope for, at least most of us, is that we live our lives in manners consistent with what we believe to be right and just.

If we do that, our individual actions will for the most part be right and just, and since history is the sum of those actions, the world will fall into line. Any other course involves me, or you, or Jim, telling the world what it should be or be like, Even Christ, Buddah and Mohammed have'nt been totally successful at that.

Regards, McRostie

52. A postsscript to FelixG
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 10:22 AM/EST
McRostie

Some time ago Felix, I believe you used a military analogy, and Jim has too from time to time. I'll use one now.

As I recall my long ago military training, I seem to remember that the best officer is one who leads, not the one who orders others.

Regards, McRostie

53. james earl ray...
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 10:52 AM/EST
eireann

...shot martin luther king.

54. deja vu
Tue, Feb 16, 1999 - 2:22 PM/EST
JimP

We've been here before. Post 18 of thread 6, Getting to Know You:
"When I was in the AF, the definition of leadership is to enable a group of individuals to move together to accomplish a given goal or mission. It has been over 20 years, but I think I've got the essence right. "

I am not sure I see the connection here, but stretching a bit, here are my comments.

Each of have responsibilities. Not all cultures value the individual as much as the US, and other western European nations. Many cultures are much more group, or community based. The Judaic tradition, in some of its more conservative forms, has the norm that ten persons to be together to pray to the Creator.

I, however, am not entirely group oriented. I do think that I am team oriented. The military does work best in teams, in which each person learns to depend on the others. My particular relationship with all that is around me, persons, nature, politics, etc., seems to be teaching me that waht I do as an individual affects each of them.

It is the sum of individuals that move a culture, or society. However, leaders do appear in each culture. I have the depressed feeling that there are not many effective leaders available today, and those who are effective seem to draw enough fire from opponents that they quickly become ineffective.

I am not a leader, by my own definition, though I do feel that I am effective in my profession in getting others to work toward a common solution in systems analysis.

It is not enough for me to want to be a professional systems analyst, as much as I can see, feel, and recognize that I have contributed to developing some systems that greatly benefit my state government.

I feel the need to unify my selves to be effective in arenas that make a difference in the wider world. I do NOT feel that it is necessary for me to TELL the world what it should be like. I can, however, be better prepared to tell the persons who are elected to represent me how I feel the nation should be responding to Kosovo, East Timur, Sierra Leone, and many others. If my vision does not match the majority of the culture, or society, it is my responsibility to understand where the differences lie, what causes them, and to determine whether I can move toward the majority, or to be a dissident.

I think that there are leaders, and that they are people such as me who see a need, and have the energy and conviction to enable others to see. I AM NOT claiming to be such a person. But, the differences between me and a leader is action.

Enough for now. Another soapbox, but I seem to be having difficulties explaining myself in concise terms.

Regards,

Jim

55. Individuals and leaders
Wed, Feb 17, 1999 - 5:20 AM/EST
FelixG

First: apologies to McRostie for damaging his name in my last...

Once again, I agree with much of what you say, McRostie, but differ in one matter. While you are right that no individual has successfully told history what to do for very long, I see no more evidence for your belief that "If ... our individual actions ... be right and just, ... the world will fall into line."

However, despite that, I agree that doing our own best is all we can do. That, I think, is also what JimP and I have also said ...
Both of us also feel inclined to also *say* what we feel to be right and just - but that is not all the same thing as telling other people to do the same, surely?

For the rest - I regard militaries, including their officers, as a depressingly necessary evil, not ideals, and I see leaders/leadership in much the same way.
Yes, I probably did use a military analogy; I frequently do, unfortunately. That is a reflection of my own background and the gloomier aspects of human behaviour ... i shall try to do it less in future, and thank you for holding up this mirror to me :-)

Felix

56. Leadership, a necessary evil?
Wed, Feb 17, 1999 - 10:25 AM/EST
McRostie

That is an interesting idea Felix. I guess I would have to agree that if we were all perfect, we would have no need or use for leadership.

Since we are not the personification of perfection however, I'll stick to my point that leading is better than ordering.

As to "saying", you hit it directly on the head when you said "say what we feel to be right and just". You and Jim do, and I wish many more did, have an understanding of the difference between saying that and "saying what is right and just".

As to my name, it has been mangled in ways you couldn't imagine. Actually, in Scotland one part of the family spells it that way. As to military analogies, use them if they make a point worth making. I'm not a particular fan of the military, but it has proved useful at times.

Regards, McRostie

57. Military
Wed, Feb 17, 1999 - 10:57 AM/EST
JimP

I have to ask you, McRostie, what has caused you to be "not a particular fan of the military... ."

The military has, from the time of Plato, for the most part been an honorable, respected profession. Leaders throughout history have come from the military. "Duty, Honor, Country" are respected mores, and are the hallmarks of our particular, US, military services.

There is an article in today's news that all our services are having problems recruiting both enlisted and officers. I feel that this is a reflection of statements such as your's, and feel saddened.

I, of course, have a biased outlook. Everything, I repeat, underline, EVERYTHING, I am today is a result of the 20+ years I was in the military. I will readily admit that my tours were not always what I would have wished them to be. The military has their share of less than perfect leaders and followers, just as any organization does.

So, taken from that perspective, I ask you, what has caused you to be have your less than enthusiastic feelings for the military. Without going back to read introductions, I think you said that you were a Naval Officer, not once but twice. Was there some moment in those times that convinced you that the military ans an institution was not deserving of your support?

Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, feelings, and to state them as you desire. I am just curious, and you are certainly welcome to tell me to mind my own business.

Regards,

Jim

58. Mind your own business?
Wed, Feb 17, 1999 - 11:28 AM/EST
McRostie

Not at all Jim. The question was valid and deserves an answer.

The "military" has a place in our lives and rightfully so. When I say I'm not a particular fan of the military, I say that in the sense that it is not, as somr of our "patriots" seem to say, the reason for its own existence.

We had a President who rose to that office after being the Supreme Commander of Allied forces in Europe, Eisenhower. If you will recall, at the end of his two terms in office, he gave the country (and the world) an eloquent warning about the dangers of the military-industrial complex. It's as a part of that complex that I am not a "fan of the military".

When it comes to what the military does best, defend those things which we believe are matters of right to a human being as expressed by our Constitution, I support them. When it comes to supporting industry, I have trouble.

As I recall, you have said that at times you were a recruiter Jim. You require no further recommendation. Those folks are, and were, the best examples of what is good in the military.

Regards, McRostie