Subject Brainstorm, please read. (16 posts)

3. Oops!
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 3:12 AM/EST
Gayle

That last to should have been 'too'.

4. Atropos
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 3:58 AM/EST
Gayle

I was being too flip when I responded about the testing. I'm ENFP.

5. Indeed
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 4:23 AM/EST
Hernick

Hmm.. The test says that I am Guardian: SJ with a variant temperament of Inspector: ISTJ. Just like 43% of people who took that test, they say. I'm similar to Harry truman and Elizabeth II.

Interesting. Now, as for the topics you've suggested.. I'll keep what I say short..

Language Prejudice: I don't think its worth talking about :) People, included elected officials, should be allowed to massacrate language as much as they want to.. Who does it hurt :) ?

Gun Control: Yes ! guns to the people ! Since by definition criminals don't obey they law, how is the law going to stop them from obtaining guns ? Gun control only hurts law abiding citizens !.

Abortive Measures: I think if you don't like abortions, don't get one. And I think of the fetus as more of a parasite than a living being. I'm sure you could refute that, though :)

Sex Roles in the Work Force: Women, with their mood swings and possibility of pregnancy, are less reliable than men. They could get pregnant and have to leave at any time and can't be trusted to high-level jobs as much as men do. Feminists are hurting themselves by prohibiting contracts than include mandatory contraceptive treatment - which restores the women's complete worth in most jobs. There also is the problem that few men want to be lead by a women. That can't be changed, and I don't think salary equality should be regulated, except in the governement (which should be destroyed anyway) for that it uses the money of the people and should do what the people want (salary equality). Corporations should be able to do what they want. Yeah, that probably sound very misogynous. But non-interference with corporations is what I think should be. No exceptions. Women can build lobbies and empires as well as men do - they just didn't, but in time probably will.

Political Accountability: Put an end to the miserable life of governement officials that make mistakes. Well, at least to their carreers. And without lengthy trials.

Why or why not the Internet should be Censored: Of course not. Censorship is evil. Pedophiles should just be shot, and models who give their consent watched by those who want to.

and Consistency of the Law among all Citizens (of any country): No countries at all with almost no governement, only a central justice and defense force, and perhaps ownership of roads, would be very good.

6. Other Topics
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 11:58 AM/EST
Graham

Some rather significant topics were recommended above. Let me ask a more basic question. Have we lost the ability for discourse in this country. The political leaders (most on both sides) posture themselves, usually in front of an audience that agrees with them and it appears the population follows this example.

I ask these questions:

Am I dreaming that it was ever better?

How do you improve discussion in this environment?

7. Are You Dreaming?
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 7:56 PM/EST
JimP

Graham,

No, I don't think you are dreaming. I believe it has been better. And, strangely enough, I think it is beginning to get better again. I credit access to the internet for that. The internet allows an individual to access far more information about a subject that has ever been available. I think politicians, business leaders, and the general public are beginning to recognize that the 30 second sound byte will not be enough anymore. More people can access background information. They also have the means of access to confront the individual who is posturing with and ask questions.

Now, does that answer the second question - How do you improve discussion in this environment? No, it probably doesn't.

I think we who are participating in this group and those in other groups are answering a portion of that. We are attempting to open ourselves to other viewpoints, and to learn.

Beyond that, I feel that there must be a return to personal responsibility. I recently heard Tom Brokaw interviewed about a book he has written about survivors of WWII. His point, especially about the first person profiled in his book, was that the generation who fought the Second World War took responsibility for themselves. IMHO, today's society does not do that. Another anecdote - I heard about a woman who sued LA County for millions because the center line of the road was not painted brightly enough, and she crossed over the yellow line and was involved in an accident. LA County settled out of court!! To me, though I certainly do not know all the sides of the story, that is a flagrant example of not taking resonsibility for her actions. It wasn't her fault, the lines weren't clear.

From there, I go to how that answers your question. It's a combination of things to me.
a) The information is available for us to know more about any subject a pompous person may posture about.
b) We have to take responsibility for ourselves and force the discussion to be more than posturing.

In a small manner, I agree with Hernick. Government is too large, too invasive, and too costly. I cannot go as far as he states, but I'd certainly do without many of the agencies that are presently a part of government. I think that if we each took more responsibility for ourselves, or actions, and our right and need to know, less government would be necessary.

Then, I find myself using the information that is produced by some of those agencies. The Dept. of Labor produces statistics that help businesses to respond to changing conditions. The Dept. of Commerce produces information that assists small businesses to function better. These are just two examples. Would these, and other services be available if there were not a federal agency responsible for collecting them? I don't know. There may be private companies who could fill the function, but would there be the comprehensive collection of data that we have now?

See what I mean, there are always two or more sides to a question. There must be a middle ground, but I don't know what it is.

8. Now, on to Hernick WITHIN
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 9:08 PM/EST
JimP

Whew!

You really know how to pull my chain, and we don't even know one another yet. Good for you! I have a sneaking suspicion that you accomplished your goal when you jerked my chain.

Single sentence responses to some to the subjects Atropos proposed aren't responsive to the intent of the forum, IMHO. I assume you wrote them because they are the essence of what you believe, and that is OK with me. You seem to have distilled your philosophy to several short, concise sentences that you fling out hoping to get a reaction. If that is true, you are successful, but I think a more complete, explained response would engender more communication, and we would all learn more about you and how you have come to these conclusions. Now, to take each of your short, almost explosive statements in order.

Language Prejudice - not worth talking about. Then you proceed to use some prejudicial language that closes all communication. The massacre of the language has been very important in Quebec, has it not? In fact, I believe the government is very adamantly forcing the French language to be maintained in a state that they decide is proper. With your dislike for government, where do you stand?

Gun Control - Yes! guns to the people! I agree, however, what guns do you have in mind? Is it OK if I use my howitzer to blow your house away? Surely, there must be a middle ground between complete license and responsible use.

Abortive Measures - ...if you don't like abortions, don't get one. I don't like abortions, but that sentence doesn't apply to me. I am male. What are my rights? Have you even entertained ideas about when life begins, is life sacrosanct? Surely you must have in order to have reached any conclusion. What were your thought processes?

Sex Roles in the Work Force. Women ...mood swings. That is communication?? Your conception of men's wishes to be led by women comes from how extensive a survey? Corporations are public entities that have rights, and responsibilities. Corporations are, however, not the problem. General Motors never bought, ro sold a damn thing. No corporation has ever trampled anyone else's rights. PEOPLE within these corporations do though. How do you want these PEOPLE treated, either male or female?

Political Accountability - put an end to ... How are we to go about this, through the ballot, with one of your guns, etc.? What process to remove them from office would you recommend?

Internet Censorship - ...Pedophiles should be shot . How are we to know that there are pedophiles using the internet unless there are some people monitoring it? Is that a government function? Who decides, and how - through a trial, or summarily by vigilante, that they should be shot?

Consistency of the Law - No countries ... central justice and defense... How do you think we should arrive at that state of no countries? How long do you think it will take us? Is the UN helpful in such an effort, or do you have another method of putting such a government in place?

These are my objections to your reply to the post. I am looking forward to a more complete, and therefore interesting dialogue.

Jim

9. Just Thinking
Sat, Jan 9, 1999 - 10:55 PM/EST
JimP

I'm sitting here at the keyboard rather than at my quilting table, and thought I might as well continue to post. I tried quilting, but it hurt too much.I smacked my thumb really good this afternoon working in the garage. It is very difficult to quilt without using your thumb. Since I am a two, three or four at the most, finger typist, I can do this much more comfortably.

I notice that we now have two contributors from Atlanta GA, and two from Minneapolis, MN. Graham and worker ant seem to be in the same industry. Is it likely, in a city as active and as technically vibrant as Atlanta, that they know each other? IMWTK - That's "Inquiring Minds Want To Know." I read it on a quilting bulletin board.
How about Mela and BobbyD?

There are others in the group who have not yet posted. I'm hoping that they will join in soon.

I took the Myers-Briggs years ago, and have the results somewhere around in my files. I can't find them now though, and as my father-in-law tells me, if you can't find the tool when you need it, you might as well not have it. I don't have it. But, as I remember, I was in one of the categories in which only 2% of the population falls, I think it was INTJ, but I really can't remember.

I took another personality test about five years ago on a church retreat. It was the Enneagram. Have any of you heard of it?

Actually, I thought that the Enneagram gave me an accurate picture of my personality, even though I was extremely skeptical when we started. It said that I am an Observer. By that, they mean that I usually stay on the fringes of meetings and social gatherings, observing the others rather than fully participating. Can you believe that, after so many postings from my board? Not likely! But it is who I am in social gatherings particularly.

I'd like to add more to the picture of who I am. I am a quilter. I hand piece and hand quilt. For those of you who do not know what that means, which is probably most of you, piecing is the process of cutting materials and sewing them into patterns. Quilting it the process of sewing three layers of material together to form the quilt. Quilting also forms a pattern in the layers. When it is all done, there's a nice quilt that can be displayed or used. Many quilters machine piece and hand quilt, some machine each, and there are those of us that do each by hand.

Why do I quilt? I'm tempted to say I don't know, because there is an element to that. But, basically, I quilt for two primary reasons. One, it provides me something to do with my time in the evenings beside watch television or eat. I read a lot, but that seems lately to be more of a just before bedtime activity.

The second reason I quilt is to leave a part of me. I don't have any natural children. My daughter is actually my step-daughter. She was 12 when I met my wife, and is now 28. There is really no other descendents.

My wife and I visited Germany about 8 years ago. We stayed in hotels that were built before the US was discovered. That impressed me. Even vbefore that visit, I've wanted to build a house that I knew would be around, functional, and lived in three or four hundred years from now. That's not likely for someone with my limited means. It would require some expensive construction.

But, I've acquired, either through family or purchase, some quilts that are nearly 100 yrs. old. I can do that. My quilts will be here long after I am gone. I guess that says it. I'm leaving something behind that will be used, and hopefully cherished, for a long time.

This is a long post. I'll close, and maybe ramble on in another thread.

Jim

10. Language Prejudice in Quebec
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 1:53 AM/EST
Hernick

I had not thought at all of the language situation in Quebec. Well, the situation indeed is pretty grim. The governement does openly endorse and force upon the citizens the french language and folklore.

Getting in an english language school is hard to do and severely regulated. There are radio quotas that dictate radio stations must broadcast at least 50% of french songs. The laws on advertising forbid you from having more or larger english text - companies that had english web sites were fined by the governement.

From grades 4 thru 12, there are a mandatory 4 hours of english every week classes. However, most students that come out of 12th grade do not have adequate conversational skills. From what I've observed not that long ago, most 12th graders cannot do an oral presentation without having learned their text and even then they are very hard to understand. Spontaneous conversation is almost impossible. Even after eight years of english, or about 1800 hours, assignements are still never longer than 100 words. The tapes that are played back during oral comprehension exams are still composed of people carefully pronouncing every word of their simplistic text at a very slow pace.

The governement doesn't want us to learn english. And that puts us in an awkward situation: most of Quebecers can never go out of Quebec unless on vacation, since they don't speak english. Getting a job without even intermediate language skills is not an easy thing.

But there is a lot effort put in french classes. At least five hours a week of french, and now that number is becoming six for some students. Mandatory from grades 1 thru 14. And a french language test is required if you ever want to go to university, in any program.

Anyway, I think this is a nice summary of the situation here.

I don't like it much. I think the governement should at least let schools choose how much english they want to teach, and how fast they want to teach english (the current classes are just too slow. You spend about a year just on date and time).

And the governement should stop supporting the french canadian art and folklore. They inject millions in museums, language preservation organisms, support radio quotas, run ad campaigns to boost the popularity of the french language, regulate use of other languages...

I don't think keeping our folklore is important. I've been told we need to keep our cultural identity. I don't know why we should do that. Those who want to keep it can, with their own funds, but the governement should not force an identity upon us.

A private education system would see the benefits of teaching english above french. With no more regulations on language and no governement publicity on french, I think that french would fall rapidly, english gain a lot of ground, and within perhaps a generation or two, allow us to integrate with the rest of north america instead of staying a separate, closed society.

Those who want to support the folklore and culture will do it with their own money. It will live on in private museums funded by eccentric millionaires. It will bring us one step closer to a fully integrated and homogenous humanity. When aliens attack earth, we better stand united :) Just kidding... that's not why I want a unified human race :)

11. Hernick, why the oppression?
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 2:28 AM/EST
Gayle

I have asked my Canadian friends and family members why the government of Quebec is oppressing it's people in this way, but they're so disgusted with the officials that I get no more than a rant about how "idiots" are in power there. Can you give me any insight into this odd desire for elitist isolationism?

12. Personality Test Results
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 5:57 AM/EST
Tyler

Since it is late, I'll limit this post to my personality test results. The test said I was a Rational : NT with a variant temperament of Inventor : ENTP. <%2 percent of the population is this way, and I am similar to Steve Jobs, Edison, Walt Disney, and Nicola Tesla.

Interestingly enough, the test said that Inventors "have less and less desire, if they ever had any, to direct the activities of others, doing so only when forced to by circumstances." I consider this to be the opposite for me, but regarless a very insightful test.

13. Nerds in Atlanta
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 2:16 PM/EST
worker ant

[No offense to Graham there - I claim the title "nerd" proudly.]

I don't know Graham's real identity, but I'm not aware of it if I do know him. Atlanta is full of computer people - it's not that tight-knit a community.

Graham, if you want to take this off-line, let me know.

14. Hernick
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 10:02 PM/EST
JimP

Thanks, Hernick. I think that post is the first time I have heard anyone describe the situation in Quebec, other than the US media.

The US South has traces of the same sentiment, and once again, I am of mixed opinion about where we should go.

The south has a very definite heritage. I don't defend the wrongs of the past, but there were certainly a lot of that heritage that was good. Others have described that heritage much better than I can, so I will not even try.

The Research Triangle Park (RTP) is one of the fastest growing scientific, technical, and medical centers of the nation. Cary, NC is the area many persons from other regions have moved. So many have settled there that the name has become an acronym standing for Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

To relate my point to Hernicks, as TV has begun to modify the pronunciation of southerners, and Yankees have come into the area, the distinct feel of the south is changing.

Many people do not want it to change, and are resisting it in every way they can. I guess that is what the French speaking element of Quebec is attempting to do too. France itself has strong laws about use of English, and American idioms.

Hernick, there is reason to hold on to some of the past. Without roots, the least wind may blow us away. I feel that your French leaders are afraid that their roots will be pulled out and their heritage will die with them. I know you do not agree, since you say that you don't thing keeping a folklore is important. Trust me though, at some point in your life, you will probably want to be assured that some part of you will continue. Your French speaking leaders are just more adamant about doing it.

I miss some of the real gentle elements that are being eroded in the south. But, I recognize that change is inevitable. There is a balance needed between unthinking change and rigid (or can we jokingly say "frigid") thought.

15. re: graham's discourse thread
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 1:25 PM/EST
eireann

i find this train of thought very interesting- and useful from several levels. could we start a new thread? is there interest enough?

-eireann

16. Sure, Do it.
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 1:37 PM/EST
JimP