Are we evolving? (20 posts)
7. Reply to Tad
Sun, Jan 10, 1999 - 9:32 PM/EST
JimP
Gary Zukav has not written about ESP. Please, if you can get it from the library, read the book. I don't think its fair to reject it without having read it.
I am not a scientist, but I am aware of the scientific method. That has stood us very well as knowledge is multiplying, and I am thankful for it.
What I think Zukav is saying is that mankind is beginning to be aware of the unity of the universe, and of other ways of attaining knowledge than through the five senses. I hate to try to paraphrase a book as interesting as his into one sentence, but there it is.
I read Zukav's book, as I have others. I read The Celestine Prophecy, but have not read the last book.
If anything, I hope that my multiple posts indicate that I try to understand many points of view. I cannot firmly state that I agree with all that Zukav says, nor do I take the Bible without question. There are people, even in my own family, who would call that heretical, but that is also OK.
I ask my questions, examine the answers I receive fro others and from my own internal set of guides, and try to make decisions for my life that reflect who I am, and who I want to be.
I don't think any one has all the answers, and the scientific method, if I understand it right, is only one way of developing knowledge. I think that I've read somewhere that science has determined that the mere observance changes actions, and that asking a question can change the answer. I say "I think" because I cannot quote sources.
8. ESP Evolution
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - /EST
worker ant
Gayle,
As you probably know, the theory of Darwinian evolution says that random mutations exist in a population. Either the mutation has a positive or negative survival value - it either makes the organism more or less fit to survive in its environment.
Assuming that ESP were possible, what would be the survival value? Your assertion implies that the possibility of ESP exists, that some humans have this mutation, and that it has such a positive survival value that it enhances that person's chances of passing on their genes to the next generation. And, you say, all of this is happening so quickly that we can detect it.
I don't buy it (or could you infer that from my rant?)
9. To worker ant
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 11:36 AM/EST
Gayle
If that was a rant, it's the politest one I've seen in a long time.
I didn't mean to imply ESP is something that can be classified as part of an evolution mutation. I don't believe it's a mutation at all. I meant to convey that it is something we -- all living creatures -- have had since the beginnings of time. In humans, telepathy, clairvoyance, and precognition have probably been lost to a great degree due to things such as stress. I believe it is re-emerging in more and more people. Probably because more and more are paying attention to their inner selves.
Gut feeling, a.k.a. intuition, is part of ESP. It has been known to save lives. Example: police officers often develop excellent intuitive powers, and of course, mothers. It's instinctive, but often ignored.
10. Multisensory
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 2:34 PM/EST
JimP
A multisensory individual is not necessarily using ESP. This individual understands the connection of each of us with one another, with nature, and with animals. This person makes decisions based on his or her understanding of that connection.
I wish there were some method that I could explain Zukav's ideas. I cannot adequately do so. I've done it so poorly that I'm sorry I brought it up.
11. Oh, well...
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 2:52 PM/EST
Gayle
I don't seem to be doing so well with it myself.
12. I forgot to mention
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 3:13 PM/EST
Gayle
JimP: "This individual understands the connection of each of us with one another, with nature, and with animals. This person makes decisions based on his or her understanding of that connection. "
I'm part Sioux and Iroquois, and have recently begun learning about that part of my heritage. The person you describe above is an Indian (PC - Native American). What you have outlined above is the core of the Indian belief system.
13. Amen!
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 3:24 PM/EST
JimP
Have you read "I Become Part Of It"?
And, the Native American is not the only culture that does. It sometimes seems that the eurocentric culture is the only one that does not.
14. Author?
Mon, Jan 11, 1999 - 4:16 PM/EST
Gayle
I haven't read that.
15. Science and the Spirit
Tue, Jan 12, 1999 - /EST
Tad
Jim, I will try to find a copy of the Zukav book.
This connection that you describe with "one another, with nature, with animals" is something that I think many of us can relate to. It is an essential part of human nature to feel deep compassion for people and animals, and to be inspired by natural beauty. I certainly feel those things very strongly, sometimes even overwhelmingly.
Still, no matter how strongly I feel those things, my own belief system does not allow me to attribute them to a spiritual "power," or to some new sensory faculty that is "evolving" within me.
But I have respect for people who believe differently...people who think that such emotions are given to us by something greater than ourselves. Even though I do not share that belief, I think I can understand it. I, too, have been moved beyond words.
I believe that there are some questions that science will never answer. For example, science will never tell us if there is a God. Science can only answer questions about things that can be observed and measured.
The scope of scientific knowledge is constantly expanding, as we sharpen our technical skills of observation and measurement. But there are some questions that science will never catch up with. These questions will always belong to the realm of opinion and faith.
And when we are dealing with questions that belong to that realm of opinion and faith, each of us must have humility, because in that realm, we are all made equal by our ignorance. None of us has a monopoly on the truth, so we should have respect for one other's beliefs.
But I am bothered by people who refuse to recognize the boundary line where objective knowledge (science) leaves off, and spiritual belief begins. There is no sense in trying to apply science to answer the questions that science has no answers for. Any attempt at doing so results in so much gobbledygook.
So when I read Zukav, it will be with a skeptical eye. I will be asking myself whether he respects the boundary line between the spiritual and the scientific. I let you know how I feel about him after I have read him.
16. Thanks, Tad
Tue, Jan 12, 1999 - 11:08 AM/EST
JimP
That's all that I can ask.
I recommend another book to you, that has nothing to do with the spiritual.
"The Cerebral Symphony", whose author escapes me as I type this, is a book by a scientist. It was written while he was at Woods Hole, a scientific community that investigates many things. I realize this is very vague, but I'm writing at work, and can't get to my library.
Anyway, he writes very well, and shows exactly how evolution accounts for all that we have as part of our world. He gives some of the math, and shows that over centuries of evolution, even events as wonderfully varied as how a sea bird fishes for food, we have the present world. Nothing is, that hasn't evolved slowly.
Then, at the end of the book, he attends a symphony. He states, accurately or not, I don't know, that the music of the symphony has no prior state from which it evolved. The notes of music of the symphony do not have a predecessor, either in nature or other types of music. They were created, purely.
To me, that was a turning point in my thought of science. I could understand and accept that evolution could account for almost everything, if I could see for myself that there could possibly be some evidence of creation.
Just another idea to think about.
17. Cerebral Symphony
Tue, Jan 12, 1999 - 12:51 PM/EST
JimP
The Cerebral Symphony: Seashore Reflections on the Structure of Consciousness, by William H. Calvin
There's is a brief interview with him available on Amazon.com. The interview is quite interesting in itself.
Jim
18. To Jim
Tue, Jan 12, 1999 - 9:43 PM/EST
Tad
I have read excerpts from "Cerebral Symphony," but not the whole book. I used to go to Woods Hole for annual retreats when I was a grad student, and they had copies of the book available there for perusal.
As the book says, there is a big difference between the process by which a symphony (or any product of the mind) is created, compared with the way that a living creature is created. A symphony is created by an inventive process, which happens within an intelligent mind. A creature is created by an evolutionary process, which happens within the ecosystem that the creature inhabits.
I don't quite follow your meaning when you say that this observation helped you to "understand and accept that evolution could account for almost everything, if I could see for myself that there could possibly be some evidence for creation."
Have you ever read _The Selfish Gene_, by Richard Dawkins? Dawkins has some very interesting ideas about this comparison between invention and evolution. He argues that in human culture, ideas (symphonies are a pretty good example) are passed from one generation to the next, much the same way that molecular genes are passed from one generation to the next by a species. Dawkins calls these cultural ideas "memes," and suggests that they may be thought of as the mental analogue of "genes."
According to Dawkins, some memes have more "fitness" than others, just as some genes make an animal more fit than others. That is, some memes are more capable of passing themselves on to future generations than others. He offers religion as one example. Many religions teach that those who believe in the faith will live in eternal bliss after death, whereas those that do not believe in the faith will suffer eternal damnation. This is not a subtle message: it basically says, "pass these ideas on to the next generation, or there will be hell to pay for it." This message makes a very "fit" meme, because it insures its own survival for the next generation.
But religion is not the only example of a meme. Any cultural knowledge that people want to share and pass on is a meme--a song, a recipe, instructions for building an atomic bomb--whatever.
Dawkins is a pretty radical evolutionist and materialist. He is often rather venemous in his criticism of philosophies that he does not agree with, which is unfortunate. But he is a brilliant thinker, and a first-rate author, so I'd recommend him in spite of his flaws.
19. Cerebral Symphony
Wed, Jan 13, 1999 - /EST
JimP
I think that what I was attempting to say is evolution is important. At some point, there was new thought, i.e. creation. That confirms, in a small manner that humans create, which fits with my concept of the relation between the Creator and humans.
I don't have my copy of The Cerebral Symphony any more. I lent it out, and never received it back. Now, when I need to read it, to refresh my memory, and to learn again and still, it isn't available. I also see in Amazon.com that the hardback copy I had is no longer available, only a softcover. That will teach me to guard my books.
I will read Dawkins book. I'm not a scientist, but enjoy reading some of their lighter works. Thanks for the suggestion, Tad.
20. Cerebral Symphony
Wed, Jan 13, 1999 - /EST
JimP
I think that what I was attempting to say is evolution is important. At some point, there was new thought, i.e. creation. That confirms, in a small manner that humans create, which fits with my concept of the relation between the Creator and humans.
I don't have my copy of The Cerebral Symphony any more. I lent it out, and never received it back. Now, when I need to read it, to refresh my memory, and to learn again and still, it isn't available. I also see in Amazon.com that the hardback copy I had is no longer available, only a softcover. That will teach me to guard my books.
I will read Dawkins book. I'm not a scientist, but enjoy reading some of their lighter works. Thanks for the suggestion, Tad.
